Sam Penny (00:01)
Welcome back to Built to Sell, Built to Buy. I'm your host, Today we're exploring how brand and culture can transform a business from the inside out and why aligning them can literally make your company move 56 times faster. My guest today is Nader Safinya founder of Black Ribbit, a brand strategist and the man behind the concept of culture branding.
He spent two decades guiding organizations through transformation, designing cultures that aren't just posters on a wall, but living systems that drive growth, loyalty and speed. He's also the host of Frog Talk, a podcast about branding and the modern workplace where he shares insights on how leaders can create people first brands that scale. So if you've ever wondered how to build a company that makes decisions quickly, retains top talent and attracts loyal customers,
This conversation is for you. Nader welcome to the show.
Nader Safinya (00:58)
Sam, it's a pleasure. What an intro. Thank you. I'm honored.
Sam Penny (01:02)
I take a lot of pride in my intros because it really sets up for where we're going. And this is going to be a great conversation today. Now, you've been described as a brand strategist, a designer and professor, but at the heart of it, you're really a culture builder. So I want to go back to the beginning, however, because your international upbringing really did seem to shape your career, your early career, particularly, and shape your fascination.
with design and human behavior. So tell me about your whole upbringing and how it's shaped who you are today.
Nader Safinya (01:38)
Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a long story. Basically. All right. So before the age of 18, I, um, had lived in, was born in the U S my family is Iranian. Um, and before the age of 18, I had lived in Indonesia, the UAE and France. Um, and then I went to California for university and a college degree. Um, fast forward to, uh, 2016 after 14 years in California.
I moved to Munich for a master's degree for, was there for two years. Then I went to New York and then I came here to Texas. So I've really been all over the place. And again, before the age of 18, I had just, you know, people talk about culture shock. You don't really experience culture shock when you're a child because there's no frame of reference. So you just think this is what it is. This is just.
what life is, it's just this diverse, it's just this, ⁓ you know, this varied ⁓ and this juxtaposed and so on. And one thing that I always had growing up from a very early age was ⁓ I was just a very astute observer. I was an introvert, you know, most introverts tend to be observers and observant. And I just sort of saw everything. ⁓
couldn't make sense of anything, but I could see everything. And I would notice, you know, how people interacted with each other, how that made them feel, how certain behaviors would elicit certain responses. ⁓ You know, I saw the worst parts of humanity. I saw the best parts of humanity, ⁓ you know, and it was just very visceral. It was a very visceral experience and upbringing ⁓ that really drove
the sort of innate interest in the interconnectedness of things, of people, places and things and how everything sort of meshes together. I also grew up in a party. And ⁓ that's not a metaphor. I actually grew up in a party. My mother threw parties pretty much every weekend that I can possibly remember growing up. ⁓ And she would throw parties for everybody, my father's co-workers, his...
his work, their local communities, Iranians, ⁓ anyone who's not Iranian to Iranians are foreigners. So foreigners, Iranians, and so on. ⁓ And ⁓ what was interesting was that the parties were always very mixed. And ⁓ I even say, if I had a flashback of my life, it would just be like ankles, knees, shins, torsos, and so on, and me dancing with a drink in my hand, and I'd kick the bucket.
Sam Penny (04:11)
You
Nader Safinya (04:33)
Ultimately, ⁓ it was just me seeing one thing, one very common thing that was taking place at parties, which is everybody's there for the same reason. Everyone is there for the same reason. Everyone's being treated the same way. Everyone is experiencing the same thing. And an hour in my mother's parties, you had people from all walks of life, totally intercultural, totally diverse, different languages, know, different backgrounds, different classes, and so on.
⁓ from housekeepers to caterers all the way to the top, the, you know, the top hog at the company and so on, like very rich oil people and all that. But everyone, when, when they came into this environment, all that stuff went out the window and they were there for one reason. And they were there to forget their troubles, to hang out. My mother cultivated an atmosphere of complete just trust and safety. So no one felt.
Like they were going to get in trouble or anything would happen. ⁓ you know, so everyone trusted each other, you know, rich people normally by definition have trust issues because everybody wants something from them. But over there at those parties, they were, they could just hang out and be cool. And people would make fun of them without being scared and these kinds of things. And I noticed as I got older that the reason.
for all of that was my mother. was my that my mom created an atmosphere that elicited that specific response. So no matter who you asked about my mom and who my mom is or whatever, no matter in what scenario, what, what context or otherwise you would get the same response. And it was because she treated everybody the same always no matter where, where they were, whether it was at her house or at their house or on the street or at the store or otherwise.
And I carried that philosophy of, you know, consistent behavior elicits consistent responses throughout my life. And that's how I started treating people and noticing that that was a thing. And that's how my interest and it's how it fed everything, you know, in addition to basically having an identity crisis my entire life, because of never really belonging anywhere, but also belonging everywhere. ⁓
culminate all this stuff and you get this.
Sam Penny (07:02)
Man, what an absolutely fascinating upbringing you must have had. I think it was 2016 you founded Black Ribbit. How did all of this journey in your upbringing and your learnings, you initially studied as a designer and graphic designer, you went over to Munich to study as well. So how did all of this journey then cultivate?
What is Black Ribbit today?
Nader Safinya (07:34)
Well, so, you know, when I, when I, uh, again, take all those experiences and then add 2015, 20 years of work experience. And you, I started noticing that, um, you know, one is a graphic designer. I really quickly realized in the pragmatic sense what I was actually doing, because in my early career, I started, um,
I started as a junior graphic designer, you know, in marketing as most graphic designers do, and was doing like ad work and advertising and this kind of stuff, very like customer focused work. And then as I came up in that company, I rode the ladder there and I actually left as a creative director. the, but through that journey, I was also responsible for all kinds of different components of the business itself. So
I was responsible for all kinds of marketing, traditional and digital. was responsible for communication strategy, internal and external. I was a liaison between various departments, clients and otherwise. was doing merchandising, know, ⁓ product design, like all the stuff that is rooted in communication design, I happened to touch somehow. And then just through the work itself, because I wasn't taught the theory of this yet. I was just through the work itself. I realized that
what I'm doing is actually solving problems. And I'm doing, I'm solving those problems through a very specific lens. But those lenses, that lens and the problem and the problems and so on weren't defined yet. I just knew that I was solving problems and that I could see things through a systematic kind of lens that I didn't know how to define. And I just knew that it worked. And I also noticed, ⁓ you know, that, that workplace
the workplace and the workplace environment and how people treat each other and ultimately the workplace culture had a major hand in how everybody felt about everything, including the customers. also, so when I sort of hit a creative and professional wall around the age of 31, it was around 2016, I moved, I went and got a master's degree in design management. And design management is,
exactly what it claims to be. It's the process of managing design processes. And so that's rooted in the model of design thinking and design thinking in simple terms is a problem solving mechanism ⁓ and model that's used to solve problems by, but it's, it's designed specifically through the lens of human centered solutions. So you're thinking about the end user and the first
step in design thinking is actually empathy, literally empathy. So your five step model is empathy, ideate, ⁓ prototype tests and iterate. And it's this constant wheel of optimization for any problem that you see. And so, ⁓ when I got my master's degree in that field and really put a name to all the stuff that I was doing and getting my brain blown wide open and just totally, totally
obsessed with all things design as the mechanism that is responsible for the entire man-made world. ⁓ I started really, it's like when Neo started seeing the Matrix. It was like that, like seeing the world through this mechanism of systems. ⁓ And when I came back to the States,
Sam Penny (11:10)
Yeah
Nader Safinya (11:22)
I launched the company in 2018 as NS Design and then rebranded as Black Ribbit in 2019. Culture branding wasn't the idea yet. It was still just traditional branding. I was still also part of the population that was very heavily focused on customer facing experiences. So the culture branding thing came later.
Sam Penny (11:47)
So then the name Black Ribbit, how did you come up with that?
Nader Safinya (11:51)
Black Ribbit. Yeah. So I was in a, ⁓ I was on a streetcar in Munich in Germany and I, ⁓ we passed a tattoo shop that was called black rabbit and I misread it as black ribbit. And I just, by the time I did a double take, it was too late. I was like, shit, that wasn't black ribbit at all. That was black rabbit, but it was already too late. And I was
Sam Penny (12:11)
Hahaha
Nader Safinya (12:18)
You know, envisioning I was swimming through a sea of tree frogs and frogs and different kinds of all these different kinds of frogs and toads and so on. Because the audible of, of a Ribbit made me think of frogs. And then I just kind of thought it was a really cool name. And, know, being in that mindset, I was like, Oh, that would be a cool name for an agency. Um, it's weird. It's different. I feel like it'd be memorable. No one else has that name. And then.
And then I did, I went down the rabbit hole and this and researched, ⁓ frogs, you know, what was that all about? Why did I, why was I thinking about frogs? And I learned that interculturally, globally that frogs basically represent the same thing and they represent empathy, guidance, the wisdom to empower oneself, ⁓ transformation. They represent teacher archetypes and, ⁓ the, ⁓
It was really interesting because, ⁓ it was almost serendipitous, because that's how I strive to live my life. In addition to how I conduct business, it's literally through those components and characteristics. And, ⁓ that's why I felt like it was serendipitous. And as a result, I named the tree frog, is, don't know if you can see it. Black on black. Yeah. ⁓ Kismet I named her Kismet because it means.
Sam Penny (13:39)
You just say it.
Hahaha
Nader Safinya (13:46)
It means fate and and the word kismet happens to be identical in Persian is qismet. So it's literally the same word. So that's how that all came to be.
Sam Penny (13:56)
It's
funny, my partner always says it's kismet baby to me.
Nader Safinya (14:01)
Yeah.
Exactly. It's Kismet.
Sam Penny (14:07)
So you've had
such a rich upbringing and ⁓ been able to be that introvert, like you said, ⁓ and really observe how people act when they come into a new environment. Before you started Black Ribbit and in those early days, did you have a really clear understanding of what your personal values were?
Nader Safinya (14:32)
Ooh, that's a really good question. So, I guess.
I guess the quick answer is no. hadn't had them defined. If someone asked me what are your values, I wouldn't have had a quick answer. I kind of would have been puttering around the subject. what I did know, ⁓ man, that's a really good question. No one's actually asked me that before. the... ⁓
I always inherently knew myself to be a certain way, right? So if someone was like, what is a non-negotiable for you? Like what would piss you off? You know, what upsets you? What sets you off? If someone did something, what would it be? I would have an answer to that. Moreover, ⁓ again, that's a really good question. So, ⁓ there was a period, I'm going to go back in time a little bit. So in my twenties,
you know, like most of us, ⁓ especially us men feel when we're in our 20s, I felt like I ruled the world. Like it was just like, you know, I ruled everything it did, I could do no wrong, and so on. And, ⁓ and it was a blast. I had really good time. ⁓ And at the same time, I was, ⁓ I was pretty abrasive. And you know, my compassion
would often show up later. ⁓ You know, I have still a lot of good friends from there. It's not that I would necessarily alienate people. ⁓ But I was sort of rough around the edges. And then when people got to know me, they were like, ⁓ this guy is just consistent. He's always like this, and he's actually quite generous, and he's quite compassionate and listens and so on. But it like took a minute to get there. And then in my 20s, in my 30s,
I didn't really want to be abrasive anymore. You know, it wasn't like, I didn't feel good about it. And I felt kind of, to be honest, Sam, it took like 10 years of just kind of soul searching because it was so like my behavior was so ingrained in me that I, I was going through another identity crisis, you know, like, who am I? What is going on here? I feel like what I was is not working anymore. And there's a dissonance between
who I, my belief system and how I act and how I, you know, how I want to be and so on. then like, I'm not eliciting the response that I want. I'm not getting what I want and it's not working for me. And that took a while. And then I flipped my own branding exercise onto myself and I looked at, ⁓ you know, thank God for having an archive of stuff online because I just went through all these old documents and I found
so many cover letters from different jobs and such that I had applied to. then, because you know, what do we write in cover letters, we talk about ourselves, like, what is our greatest qualities, our greatest strengths, and so on. And then I also went and found all these reviews and testimonials and so on, from people who had worked with me or friends in my life or whatever. And I basically synthesized them. And I never I've realized that no matter what,
Sam Penny (17:41)
.
.
Nader Safinya (18:04)
the things that stayed constant always was that I was always even if people didn't like me in my 20s, I was always described as ⁓ honest and reliable. Always. Like I remember vividly at, you know, at certain jobs where someone didn't like me and they'd come to my desk and
Be like, you're the only person I can trust to give me, to give me the feedback that I need. Everyone else is kissing my ass. Can you just tell me, tell me what you, what you think of what I just delivered? And I would, and they were like, thank you. I appreciate it. And that would be that. ⁓ but that's how I, so to answer your question, I didn't have it defined, but then by the time I was about 36,
Sam Penny (18:32)
Ha ha ha!
Nader Safinya (18:56)
I was like, I need, I need some sort of truth to myself. need to understand like where, where my truth lies. Like what is my, what are my non-negotiables? Where is my core really? And then I can start making sense of how to go from here. And that's what happened. And that's what's been sort of instilled into my own company now is those exactly those values.
Sam Penny (19:21)
So that great personal insight must have given you then an amazing framework for Black Ribbit moving forward. ⁓ That journey then led you into what's now called culture branding. I want to unpack that for listeners. ⁓ So for listeners new to your work, what exactly is culture branding and how does it differ really from traditional brand strategy and culture consulting?
Nader Safinya (19:47)
Sure. traditional, let's start with what traditional branding really is. So the way that culture branding even emerged, like came to be for me was through an experience that I had in 2021. I, when I was in New York from 18, 2018 to 2020, well, till 2021,
I, uh, you know, I was doing okay. Um, that's when I started the business. I was actually looking for work, couldn't get any bites, started freelancing. The freelancing was working out and I was like, Oh, I can pay rent in New York. This is pretty cool. So started doing that. And then, um, in 2020, you know, when COVID hit, uh, it was okay actually, but you know, in 2019, when I actually rebranded as black rivet,
in the fall, I actually repositioned to target hospitality. And then five months later, that entire industry shut down. So it was just really bad timing, really wrong place, wrong time. so in 2021, I saw the business tanking and I hit up my dad and I said, you know, I need help. I'm not going to be able to like live here. I certainly won't be able to pay rent pretty soon.
⁓ and they live in Texas and Houston. And I said, can I just come down there and stay with you guys for a while? He said, yeah, absolutely. Don't even think about it. Come down. So, you know, grateful for that. And then I came down, and while I was trying to keep the business afloat, I was still too new, man. Like I was in the set both as an entrepreneur and in the hospitality space, I had no real reputation. I mean, talk about branding. I didn't have a, I didn't really have a brand. People didn't know.
that I existed. So if brand is a gut feeling about something, I asked people, I'm like, if you have a company and no one knows about it, do you have a brand? Like, the answer is no. So I was basically unknown. And so in the meantime, I started looking for work, I applied to 460 jobs in six months, and I got one interview. And this is after all the experience that I just described to you and ⁓
that job ended up getting eliminated anyway. And then I got 60 rejections from Clearly Robots and then I got 399 ghosts. And I felt crazy, I felt dehumanized, I felt like I was in a black hole with no mirrors, just totally, just I don't know what to do. And then, so I started digging, what's going on here? And I realized that traditional branding, sales and marketing and even leadership is focused primarily, if not exclusively on the
customer experience. And then you have like, ⁓ change management, HR, recruiting, coaching, focused on the employee experience. And these two sides never really talk. So you have this great big disconnect between the employee employer relationship and the employee and customer relationship. And ultimately what companies say doesn't match what they do. And the first place that you notice this, this dual, this dual experience, this siloed experience,
is in the job application process. You know, that process is just horrific. Why is it so horrifying? Most people don't even fear losing their jobs because they won't, they'll be jobless. They fear losing their jobs because they know they have to go look for another job. And that process sucks. It's absolutely terrifying. And you know, you're going to be dehumanized. ⁓ so culture branding is the application of bridging that gap.
between what companies say and what they do by designing the customer brand and the employer brand simultaneously. So that you're in very specifically applying your fundamental core values, three specifically, fundamental non-negotiable core values to every experience across the board.
inside and outside of an organization so that when an employee and a customer actually meet for the first time, they tell the exact same story.
Sam Penny (24:10)
So I love the whole concept of core values and putting those into an organization. And it's very difficult for an organization, particularly one that's been established for a number of years to really understand what their values are. How do you take them through that framework? Let's just say, for example, a company that's been operating for about 10 years, one of your clients who has been going around about business, they've been making some great revenue.
⁓ How do you actually get to the core of what they stand for from a values perspective?
Nader Safinya (24:46)
Um, yeah, great question. So there are the way that I do it, there are many different ways to do it. Um, because it's, it's basically a qualitative exercise. Um, it's really not a quantitative exercise. The, uh, the way that I do it is through, um, observational studies, uh, workshops and interviews. And the difference, um, I'm not going to say this is unique because I know
I know certain, ⁓ certain folks who do this as well, but for the most part, people tend to focus on leadership. They focus on the C-suite leadership. The lowest down the ladder, they might go as like middle management. You know, we talked to everybody. We talked to leadership all the way through to the door guy. And, ⁓ in addition to speaking to customers, you know, our customers, customers, ⁓
and partners, basically anyone who's interacting with this ecosystem. so just like my story about aligning my testimonials to my own cover letters, it's basically the same thing. You know, like the organization is going to say something about the organization to you and describe their perception of this place. And then the outside partners and customers and who, who, who, have you.
will also describe their perception of the same organization. And then you start to see patterns and patterns start to emerge. So you, that's where, that's where the gold happens because you know, you and I might say, a series of things about the same company, but like two of them will be either the same or very similar. And then the rest is based on our personal like,
unique experiences because we have a certain background and so on. we're looking at things through our own lenses, but there's something that's actually the same where we both feel the same. And that's, that's where those, those components start to emerge is in the sameness and, whether you're the door guy, whether you're the CEO, whether you're a partner, whether you're a customer or otherwise, and that's how we uncover.
the core values and it's through very specific questions that elicit, ⁓ you know, a variable varied, ⁓ excuse me, a variety of answers. You know, we're talking about process. We're talking about perception. We're talking about opinion. We're talking about relationships, interactions. We, we cover a whole spectrum of stuff. Then we go watch them. actually observe people. do like undercover customers and undercover employees.
and so on. We'll do ⁓ workshops with leadership and middle management. And then, you know, after all this work, this stuff starts to bubble up. And that's when you can really start to hone it in and narrow it down. And we land on three fundamental values. You know, we have our, sort of company values as a whole, and then the brand values. ⁓ But then we land on three fundamentals, like a three legged stool.
which are non-negotiable, which means if one of these values is not honored in every experience, then you will inherently break the system and you won't elicit the response that you want. And the response that you want is your brand, because that's how people feel about you. And that behavior elicits that feeling.
Sam Penny (28:24)
All right, give me an example of one of your clients how your culture branding framework has really turned into tangible results, whether it's customer loyalty, employee loyalty, or even just growth.
Nader Safinya (28:37)
Yeah, so ⁓ we the thing that the power tool that comes out of our program is actually called the culture brand statement. And that is fed into a tool called the culture brand filter. The culture brand filter, the culture and statement really ⁓ wins in its elegance. It's beautiful in its elegance because it can be re it can be repurposed for everyone. We give the same one to everyone. It's basically we do everything we do.
because we value X, Y, and Z and we want people to experience A, B, and C. So for example, Black Ribbitts is Black Ribbitt does everything we do because we value reliability, compassion, and deliberate action. And we want people to experience compassionate design. Now the culture brand filter basically leverages an AI tool that we've created ⁓ that runs any decision that you want to make.
about the company, big or small from like, what kind of pens should we get to for the office all the way up through? What is our hiring and firing policy? You know, how do we go to market for valuation and, or provide a seek valuation and go acquire a new company or get bought out by another one or whatever. And that tool increases on average your decision-making speed by a factor of 56, which is crazy.
And one of my clients actually came back to us ⁓ because they were like, man, I wish we found you guys sooner because we just solved ⁓ a problem we've been deliberating over for 12 months and 12 minutes. And no joke, man, it's crazy. And I'm like, good. mean, this is what this is for because the whole concept of this is to get back your time is to buy back your time because time is the only thing that's holding us back from doing anything, including becoming better humans.
And so that's the tangible result is the first thing is time. The first hard ROI is getting your time back because you're able to make decisions so much faster. that now the only thing left to ask is how, when, and how much, not why, or should we, or should we not, whatever, because this removes any subjective, emotional, ego driven stuff and just says, does it honor
your non-negotiables and does it elicit the response you want? Yes or no. If the answer is no, then move on. If the answer is yes, go for it. And then that of course, you know, leads to measurable results that we have. leads to direction brings clarity, clarity brings, brings harmony, harmony brings collaboration, collaboration brings productivity, productivity brings money. And
It shows in the customer satisfaction scores. shows in the employee satisfaction scores.
Sam Penny (31:31)
times faster decision making, huge claim, ⁓ massive claim. But it's amazing how when a company is aligned on its culture, on its core values, ⁓ being able to make a decision, firstly, does it align with our values? Does it align with our core values? I want to ask the question, however, how do you measure 56X faster decision making?
Nader Safinya (31:57)
Yeah, that's a really good question. ⁓ the reason I underline the word average is because it truly is an average. Like for example, ⁓ we will use the actual data and feedback that we're getting. So for example, it's essentially retroactive. we'll now apply ⁓
the culture brand filter to current deliberations. You know, so for example, ⁓ like that client that said, we were just working on this thing for 12 months and we just figured it out in 12 minutes. have another client who said we were talking about this for three months, three months, and now we figured it out in five minutes. So it's, we're basically doing it. We're measuring it retroactively because the interesting thing is once you implement it,
It's hard to tell how fast you're making the decision because you don't know how long you would have spent on it. So it has to sort of be retroactive in we're fixing the, the deliberations and the sort of slow to decide models or lack of governance or whatever now. And you can tell us how long have you been sitting on this problem and this problem and this problem, this problem. That's how we measure it.
because it's based on what was, because what is, is now, it's working, it's just getting stuff done quickly.
Sam Penny (33:29)
Stakeholders
and particularly leaders, they often get worried about making faster decisions because they feel that ⁓ their decision making is going to be riskier. How do you counteract that?
Nader Safinya (33:43)
⁓ it's, it's again, it's baked into the fact that, one it's, it's rooted. It's baked into the fact that you're, you're, you're making your decisions against, ⁓ your core values. So the why is already decided. That's why this is interesting because I can tell you that if you do this, it will honor who you are and it will elicit the response that you want.
which is ultimately it'll be a truthful interaction, which means it will inherently elicit the response that you want, which is your brand. So people will feel the thing you want them to feel and they will want to buy from you and they will want to work for you, which is the ultimate question that you ask. And this statement answers both questions. Now, is it too risky? That's where the, how the operational stuff comes in. So you answer the question, should we do this? Yes or no.
If the answer is yes, now the question becomes, okay, when, how, and how much. So if you have the funds to do it, then go for it. If you don't, then wait until you do. And, ⁓ then you think about how the AI plays into it. Because when you have the full culture brand program design that we have built for you, which includes your full narrative, your full culture brand strategy, your dual strategy, again, answering why.
anyone would want to work for you and why anyone would want to buy from you down to your messaging, your writing guidelines, all your, your reason for being and your fundamentals as to why you do anything anyway, the driving force behind your entire existence with that, the AI tool becomes insanely powerful because that along with the culture brand filter now essentially you're coming up with strategies.
I mean, tactics on how to ⁓ actually implement the decisions that you are now landing on in a way that's projecting ROI, that's projecting outcome, that's projecting ⁓ both input and output in a quantitative manner. So it reduces the risk significantly.
Sam Penny (35:50)
you
You
a lot with startups who are series A, maybe early series B, and putting this framework in early, particularly before they hit that exponential growth, must be vitally important. How does that work affect the startups that you've been working with?
Nader Safinya (36:22)
⁓ So basically what I just said, ⁓ what it does for startups is that ⁓ it helps them accelerate at a much faster rate than they initially anticipated. And what's interesting about startups is, know, many startups depending on where they're at in their ⁓
in their genesis, whether they just started or if they're in series A, B, or they're just in their seed round or whatever, or they're still testing their product, you know, they're still doing market testing or anything like that. The culture brand goes in, it doesn't define, ⁓ it's not addressing a product. It's not addressing services. It's addressing people. So it's addressing the identity of the organization, which is why it's so powerful for startups as well, because
It's again, answering the why you do anything you do. If your product changes because you're, ⁓ you know, you're the, the market didn't react to it the way that you want it to, or something, or like you have a different idea or whatever. Your optimizations take the product to a different, in a different direction. You can still, ⁓ lean into the culture brand framework that has been created for you because it is your foundational who you are as an organization.
your values won't change because your product changed. It's still your, core of who you are. ⁓ so again, it becomes how, when, and how much. So it helps companies accelerate and make decisions much more faster. ⁓ even at a young age, ⁓ because then you can just lean into that and even brand your product in a way that is reliant on the crux of your, ⁓ of your own culture brand, if that makes sense.
Sam Penny (38:13)
Yeah, certainly. Now, one of the things is obviously the ROI of doing such a program. And you've got some amazing stats that have that have pulled out through my research. Four of them that I really highlighted 96 % increase in customer loyalty, 56 times fast, faster decision making $2 million saved in team retention, 43 % drop in hiring costs. You just see those and you just go
this is something I have to do. What stops a company from going through this process?
Nader Safinya (38:50)
Yeah, exactly. That's a $2 million question. ⁓ It's on Sam, I'm telling you, man, it's decision making. Like I just came off. I just came off a 12 month deliberation that ended up not even going through. ⁓ And, you know, it was with a public accounting firm, public accounting firms are
Sam Penny (38:53)
Ha ha ha.
Nader Safinya (39:19)
well known for having ⁓ basically their their governance system is managing partners, right? It's different. It's like a group of partners, they put it put things to a vote. And then, and then they make a decision. Oftentimes, it's it's kind of like focus group syndrome, where there is an influential person, and it's kind of the leans into whatever that person wants. But we were we were we were invited in. And then they they, I got 18.
of their partners of about 22 bought in. then they spent, they basically spent most of 12 months talking about this, deliberating about it, thinking about it. And I'm going, you're demonstrating the problem that we're actually solving that we would solve. And they just didn't bite because I'm it's
Sam Penny (40:05)
Ha ha.
Nader Safinya (40:14)
It's weird, man. I can't really answer that question because there's different reasons. For example, in their case, they kept coming back to me with, what do we get? What are we getting? What is the thing that we get? You know, the tangible. And I opened everything up to them. I showed them the actual deliverables and so on. Still, they were like, what do we get? I don't understand. We're showing them our proprietary culture brand, uh, KPI dashboard that measures inside outside in.
It measures, it has 46 different components. We never launched with 46, but that's how many different custom components you can be measuring to measure success. And you're talking about finance guys. I'm like, I'm showing you the data. I don't know what else you want. And, and I'm like, well, you guys, you know, the crazy thing about technical people is they'll always understand why we're doing it. They always go, I don't speak your language.
I don't speak branding. So you need to make me understand this. Like I get that it's so that we can differentiate and we can attract new talent and the best talent and get new customers. And I go, so you do understand why we're doing it. And they go, yeah, but what are we getting? And I go, look, I don't come to you and ask you what I'm getting. I just know that you're going to save my money. That's all why, why I'm coming to you. It's like a doctor, you know, it's weird, brother. don't often it's like there's fear.
There's fear. One big one I'll tell you is, ⁓ it's like insurance brokers. They, they have been burned before and, ⁓ we're coming in after a slew of other agencies and, you know, marketing people and so on. ⁓ and we kind of have to repair the damage that was made by them. And most of the time, it's nine out of 10 times it's because the program that they bought
previous to us was never implemented. so they paid a bunch of money for something. You know, it's like, remember in the old days, we'd buy software to put on our computers, and it would come in these beautiful boxes, whether it was a game or whatever, you'd like open it, it was all pretty, and it costs, you know, $650 or $1,200 or whatever. And if you didn't install the CD, nothing would happen, you would just have this
Sam Penny (42:20)
Hmm.
Nader Safinya (42:39)
thing that you paid a whole bunch of money for that would sit on the desk and collect dust. Moreover, if you installed only CD one of four, then your whole machine would fall out of like out of sync and things just the whole thing wouldn't work. You would start Frankenstining what it was with what it is and all this stuff. That's literally what's happening. And so that's why we insist on actually installing the program that we deliver.
So that's why it's, it's, it's, I'm telling you, it's weird. It's a lot of like, we don't want to wait 18 months for those numbers because it's not fast ROI. It's, you know, this as well as I do, like when you're talking about fundamental values driven, ⁓ human behavior that's eliciting responses, that's not happening overnight. ⁓ it's going to take 12 to 18 months to see those kinds of numbers. ⁓ so
It's all like that. Performance marketing has basically has killed ⁓ like true value driven branding because people want data yesterday and I can't do that. It's not a thing that's possible. The soft ROIs happen day one. You get buy in, get hopefulness, you get optimism, but the hard ROIs take time.
Sam Penny (44:01)
So then we're obviously there talking about the upper echelon of an organization. What you do has a massive impact on both the customer and the employees of that organization. Tell me how with your framework, basically those two bodies of people align.
Nader Safinya (44:23)
Well, so now, ⁓ the my big quote is, ⁓ you know, typically speaking, historically, customers are seen as dollar signs and dollars made, and employees are seen as dollars spent. And ironically, no one is treated like a human. So it's these are cash cows, this is equipment, you're spending money on equipment, you're milking cows, no one is treated like human.
So my program basically, ⁓ insists that everyone is treated the same because of the, again, that power tool that I keep coming back to the culture brand statement, because that, that, that is your, your entire motto, your mantra, your whole thing. This is how we treat people. And when you treat people back to my mom's party, like when you treat everyone the same way, then everyone has the same experience. So everyone tells the same story. And now.
The reason that these people, whether it's your customers or employees are even drawn to you is because they share the same values that you do and they want to experience the thing that you want them to experience. So very simply put, when people, when I ask the question, why would anyone want to work for you? Why would anyone want to buy from you? You should only give me one, one response. And that response in our case is your culture brand statement.
is we do everything we do because we value these things and want people to experience those things. Why would anyone want to buy from or work for you because they value those things and they want to experience these things. It's really that like, sounds trivial because it's just that simple. It's like treat everyone the same, whether they're outside or inside, whether they're paying you or taking money, whether they're paying you in cash or paying you in labor, it doesn't matter.
That's when everything aligns and people start going, this, this place, it's a stand up place.
Sam Penny (46:26)
You see it so often in advertising particularly where you can see that it's simply a transactional campaign that they're trying to achieve where we just need more customers. We just need to bring in the dollars. ⁓ But rather than trying to go out and build that loyal following, trying to build that tribe of customers, they're so focused on not what their core values are, but on the dollar value of what that customer brings in.
And so often it's a marketing agency or an advertising agency that has brought that in, but it's often a miscommunication between the organisation and the advertising agency where there is no understanding of what the culture branding is of the organisation.
Nader Safinya (47:17)
Yeah, exactly. ⁓ And the
you know, the, the, I'm just going to say this consistency is the only thing that breeds trust. And trust is neither good or bad, right? Inherently trust is just a feeling. just means you're going to expect this person to do this thing all the time, because that's how they are consistently. And if you can, if tr and consistency, especially when done in a, in a compelling way,
You know, consistent behavior that's kind, that's generous, that's exciting, that's, that's, you know, it's somehow riveting. makes your, it just drives you. It's motivating whether it's scary or fun or just kind or whatever is magnetic. You don't really have to do much for people to come knocking on your door. As long as they can see you and you're constantly showing up the way that you're showing up those that, that, ⁓
what's the word I'm looking for that align with you that hear you because they feel like you're speaking to them because you're speaking through the lens of these are my values and this is what I want people to feel. So I'm going to do this all the time. Me, I'm reliable. I'm compassionate. I'm deliberate. I'm reliable. I'm compassionate and deliberate all the time. So, you know, okay, I'm not perfect. So it's not a hundred percent of the time, but it's like 98 % of the time. And as a result,
You talk to pretty much anyone about me, whether they like me or not all over the planet. Everybody will say one of two things. They'll either say Nader is super honest or he's super reliable. And that's why people interact with us, with our company. That's why that's where the miss happens because because advertising agencies, marketing agencies, leadership and whatever they're looking for the dollars. They're not trying to reach the person behind the dollar.
They're just looking for the cash flow, the cash out, I mean the payout. So, and that's not sustainable. It doesn't grow the way that you want it to. then, only last so long, they're short lived.
Sam Penny (49:39)
Yeah, certainly short term focus and has no focus then on the lifetime value of the customer building that loyalty that person who will keep coming back and back and back and back. But also share the message of who you are with their friends because people often attract people who have similar values. Now, Nader, I want to take us to the big picture, particularly now in a world where AI is starting to affect work, it's affecting
Nader Safinya (49:54)
Yeah.
Sam Penny (50:08)
the way that people approach culture and branding. You've described yourself as snowboarding alongside an avalanche of change, particularly in this AI world. So how do you see technology really transforming branding, but particularly culture in the next decade?
Nader Safinya (50:26)
Yeah, great question. ⁓
technology is not necessarily changing culture. It's still because culture is still is still people. It's about how we live our beliefs, right? Is culture is essentially how we live our belief system. So if your belief system ⁓ is like for me, for example, I'll use again, black ribbit as an example. So if we're reliable, compassionate and deliberate, then
That means we need to be able to do the best that we can do always so that people always feel like any interaction was made with them in mind, compassionate design. So if that means for ourselves with each other or for our clients and with them, that we now need to include or implement certain tools and technologies so that we can better serve them to more deliberately and reliably and compassionately. ⁓
honor our promises to them, then that's what we're going to do. What culture branding does with respect to the AI takeover, for example, you know, the big the big elephant in the room, the the do we lose our jobs to machines, our robots going to take over everything and so on. The the long the simple answer is yes, if we're not careful. The longer answer is not necessarily, you know,
There is, we have a window of time right now where we basically need to decide if we want to take this opportunity in our evolutionary line, ⁓ where we've created something that's thinking faster than us. That's problem solving faster than us. That's evolving infinitely faster than we could have ever possibly imagined. ⁓ whereas humans evolve incredibly slowly, right? You take away all of our comforts, all this stuff.
And we're still in the jungle. We're still killer be killed animal instinct. Most people under 45 don't even have any survival skills. And it would be complete pandemonium. You know, the fact that we're still like fighting each other. The fact that you have people completely comfortable bearing their souls and their literal butts on social media for the world to see for millions of people to see, but they're afraid of the guy across the street is crazy to me. Like that's just crazy.
The fact that people are afraid of strangers to me still is insane. Like I understand why, because the world is a scary place. But the fact that that is still a thing after so much time is crazy. So what can culture branding do? Culture branding can give you back time, a lot of it. And our most valuable commodity is time. Time is what is holding us back from being better, from spending more time with each other.
for self reflection, for inner work, for whatever, you know, to create ⁓ better home lives, to create better ⁓ education and school experiences for children and so on. You know, a lot of our issues are stemmed in upbringing or stemmed in issues that we have when we're children. We're basically kids raised by kids and culture branding is a solution to that because it's
basically rooted in a system that creates more time from an inside outside in model. That's a testing ground in an organization that is ultimately a microcosm for society and all of its hierarchies and relationships and dynamics and so on. And when you can create an environment that is both honoring humanity by giving it more time and allowing humanity to actually feel a sense of joy because this program is rooted in human centered acknowledgement.
⁓ consideration, encouragement, and challenge, where people actually feel fulfilled because they're participating, they're contributing, and feeling challenged and so on. And studies show consistently that that is the greatest proponent of joy and nothing else. I'm not talking about happiness. I'm talking about sustained joy. ⁓ And you're leveraging machines to work in harmony with humans.
enhance the workspace to make work to take away the mundane, the monotonous, the task oriented stuff that humans were never really designed to do. And allow for opportunities for humans to basically be better at being human. ⁓ And what happens when we have time, we get creative, we add more stuff to do, we find new things to do that, that are more interesting that are more ⁓
in, in cultivating better relationships and so on. And culture branding can actually permeate that joy into families, into communities, into society and so on. That ultimately can create a more harmonious world because we uplifted the relationship with the workplace. And in a world of AI, why can't we be harmonious with machines? The second we find ourselves, I mean, it's already happening. We find ourselves just
following this thing all day long and showing the machine that we're our own greatest weakness that we constantly fight that we go against the number one rule that we set for them don't let humans any harm come to humans that means us harming ourselves so they're gonna start protecting us from us and they'll bind us all the stories are gonna come true if we're not careful but time will allow us to be better at being human and show the machines
that we actually can evolve faster. So that's what culture branding can accomplish.
Sam Penny (56:26)
Absolutely fantastic. Now you spoke a lot about humanity, about empathy, and many organizations, ⁓ business leaders, marketing managers, it's too easy to jump on a chat GPT, hit that deep research button and tell me what are my core values, which always lacks exactly what you're talking about, that humanity. Now, if we fast forward 10 years, what would you hope is different about the ways
companies brand themselves, make decisions, but also treat their people.
Nader Safinya (57:01)
yeah, man. I mean, I always, I say the window is 10 years before like we actually become cattle to the machine. If we're not careful, like we have to do this in the next 10 years. So my hope is that you have other culture branding agencies, you know, popping up all over the place. Like we're working on a big old project right now that we're going to release in the next year. That's going to create a systematized, like, you know, call it a DIY kind of thing where organizations can essentially
start implementing culture brand strategies ⁓ and programs themselves into their companies using the frameworks that we've created. it's all everything, like you said, it's everything we're talking about. The workplace has become more humane. People are being seen and treated as human, customers and employees alike. This side isn't just cash cows and this side isn't just equipment. ⁓
the intended elicited response is joy. know, human world peace doesn't mean no conflict. We can't really grow without conflict. Harmony doesn't mean no conflict. Harmony means understanding. Harmony means compassion, right? It's not endless happiness. That's crazy. It would never take place. So I hope that in my vision, it's not even a hope. My vision is that the world is seeing
significant impact and the consequences of organizational culture branding because that program by definition, by design will impact and permeate that feeling of joy and productivity and acknowledgement into families, into society, into communities, and ultimately just kind of like fun, like mushrooms just kind of pop up all over the place.
That's what I see.
Sam Penny (58:56)
Now,
now, we wrap up, I want to make this really practical for listeners. So if a business owner or you know, the top echelon of an of an organization want to start applying your culture branding tomorrow, what would you say would be three practical steps that they should start doing and take this week?
Nader Safinya (59:18)
Sure. The first thing you should do, honestly, is super easy. Look at yourself dead in the eyes, in the mirror, and ask yourself, would you want to work for you? Just ask yourself that question. You'd be surprised how awkward it is when you're looking at yourself in the eyes and you use exactly those words. Don't say, would I work for me? Say, would you work for you? Pretend you're someone else. A lot of answers will start popping up.
You will start asking more questions and you will answer and you will start thinking of much more profound things. That's number one. Second, very simply just ask that same question. Why do you want to work here? Why would you want to work here of your employees? Do a session with them. Get them thinking about that. You know, ask the same thing from your customers. Figure out from your reviews. If you don't want to talk to anybody,
Go get your testimonials, go find your employee reviews, your employee, ⁓ yeah, your reviews that hopefully you're doing a few times a year, at least once a year. ⁓ Get your customer testimonials, your customer reviews, and start synthesizing those. Like what is always the same? What are people saying that's always the same? It could be good, it could be bad. And if it's good, ⁓ start highlighting those, really emphasize those.
And if it's bad, well, figure out what you're doing that's eliciting that response and flip it. Now the, the, be, to just repeat most pragmatic thing you can do is go read everybody's reviews, customers and employees. You're going to learn a lot and read them carefully, not just, you know, the five star ones or the one star ones, all of
Sam Penny (1:01:05)
clearly everybody needs to work with you Nader and put your culture branding process into place because it makes economic sense. It makes sense on every level, but the value that you give to not just the organization, but to the staff, to loyal customers, there's value that's delivered right through an organization to every touch point.
Nader Safinya (1:01:08)
You
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Sam.
Sam Penny (1:01:35)
Nader Safinya thanks so much for joining me and sharing your journey. What I love about your message is how it makes culture tangible. Not just a nice to have, but a driver of growth, loyalty and speed. for those listening, remember this, clarity of value leads to clarity in decisions and clarity drives growth. Align your culture and your brand and you won't just build a company people want to work for, you'll build one people want to buy.
Before we wrap up, Nader, I'd love for you to share where people can follow your work, connect with Black Ribbit and listen to Frog Talk so that they can go even deeper with your insights.
Nader Safinya (1:02:15)
Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me, Sam. It was such a pleasure. ⁓ I'm very easy to find. can Google me, Nader Safinya. You can go to LinkedIn. I'm very active also Nader Safinya, or, you can find Frog Talk on blackribbit.com under the podcast tab and, ⁓ just follow more of our work and explore, ⁓ more culture branding, conversations over there. Hope to see you there.
Sam Penny (1:02:42)
and I'll make sure I all of those links into the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you hit subscribe and share it with someone building their own business. It really helps us bring more conversations like this your way. This has been Built to Sell, Built to Buy. I'm Sam Penny. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.
