Sam Penny (00:00)
Welcome back to Built to Sell, Built to Buy. I'm your host, Sam Penny. And today's guest is someone who knows how to turn chaos into clarity and messaging into momentum. Jeff Weinberg is founder of Offer Evolution, where he teaches entrepreneurs how to build what he calls a marketing machine, a system that creates consistent sales without constantly reinventing the wheel. And before that, Jeff helped scale lead pages to tens of thousands of customers. He led marketing at Zipify apps.
and launched and sold his own SaaS company. Along the way, he learned what separates a few businesses that grow smoothly from the many that stay stuck, spinning their wheels. If you've ever felt like your marketing is hit or miss, or you've wondered why some brands seem to grow without effort, while others fight for every sale, this episode will give you the blueprint. Jeff, welcome to the show.
Jeff Wenberg (00:51)
Hey, thanks for having me, Sam. What an intro.
Sam Penny (00:54)
Hope you like it. Now, Jeff, you've had a fascinating path from musician to marketer to founder and strategist. Take us back to the beginning. What really pulled you into the world of marketing?
Jeff Wenberg (00:57)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, so You'd mentioned, you know the music thing so I was pursuing music as just like a career and I got a music school and then ⁓ my guitar player who's my best friend we moved to Nashville to pursue music there and while I there like ⁓ I just kept running into the thing of like man I don't want to just play any gig just because we need to accept it to get paid
I need to find another way to bring income in so that we can like be a little bit more selective and like strategic with our gigs. And while I was doing that, like a friend of mine turned me on to this new thing called internet marketing back in the day. And so this was probably like 2009 or so. And I was like, what do you mean? Like you can make money. And like, I was thinking, you know, like, hey, we could like be touring and I can do something else to bring money in to support and all of that kind of stuff. And
Sam Penny (01:46)
Haha.
Jeff Wenberg (02:01)
Lo and behold, that was kind of like the the entry into it because ⁓ while we were in Nashville, I was doing temp jobs and everything I could have just kind of paid the bills and, you know, sitting at one of those it was just like a mind numbing like, you know, I can't do this. And I was emailing my wife about how dumb I thought the job was. And I just there's I know there's more for me out there. And I sent it off. And actually, I sent that to my boss and, you know, I proceeded to be fired for the first time ever.
And ⁓ it actually ended up being like a really good catalyst because I was just like, I can't just do this anymore of just like, you know, working temp jobs or like mindless jobs. And so what ended up happening is that was kind of a line in the sand. And then Fiverr had just come out at that time, too. And so I was looking on there and there's a lot of people that had like voiceover gigs. And it was like, well, man, they all really sound horrible, but I don't have a radio voice, but I could at least make them sound better because they had the recording gear for my band.
And so put a listing up there and then got hired like within a day or two. And then like within a couple of weeks, I had replaced like my full temp job ⁓ salary, just doing voiceovers for people that were doing like video sales letters and stuff. And kind of from there just transitioned into like video and content creation. And that's kind of how I ended up on the team at Leadpages.
Sam Penny (03:22)
So Leadpages, you were, and it's a great company. You were one of the early employees. There are only just a handful. I think you were number 11 in that organization. Tell me about what you learned there, being in the early stages of Leadpages and then what it grew into with tens of thousands of customers.
Jeff Wenberg (03:42)
Yeah, so like, you're right, I was number 11 on the team. And then like, by the time I left a couple years later, that was like, I was like crazy, like 175 or something like that. And I'd say like the biggest, you know, having hindsight, the biggest thing I learned there was just like, how important it is to have something that your audience actually wants. That's the first like, well, duh. But it, that's what made the entire growth of that company possible is
Clay, the CEO, he, you know, saw this need in the market because at that point in time, there weren't landing page builders everywhere. Every CRM didn't have its own landing page builder, like it, it actually took effort and money to like just create a simple web page. Or you had to know how to do it. And it was really complicated with code and everything. And so more people were coming into the space to like want to market their businesses, but there was no good option. So people were hungry for like something.
And it's like, ⁓ my, good friend of mine calls it like they were like bleeding out looking for a way to stop the bleeding. And then Lee pages just came up and was like, Hey, we can help you make a page in like five minutes and you don't need to be a designer or a coder. And it's like, boom, just an instant match.
Sam Penny (04:54)
So what did-
So then what did you really learn, I guess, about customer psychology during this moment?
Jeff Wenberg (05:02)
Yeah, I mean, like outside of that, I've just like, look for what people are actually wanting, not like what you want to sell. Like, there's a mix of that. Like, of course, you know, you want to be selling the thing that like your, your customers want to buy. But a lot of time, it's the positioning of that thing. You know, like, they just people at Leadpages and any company have been at since. It's always like, the ones that succeed are the ones that are serving the customer at the end of the day of like, what are they actively looking for? And what do they want?
and then they're just positioning themselves as that solution. Even if like the solution was developed for something else, it's like, I could totally solve that too. So let's position it there because that's what everybody's talking about. Instead of, you know, holding your ground and like trying to convince people to buy from you. It's like, just go with the momentum that's already started and position yourself there.
Sam Penny (05:52)
there must be a moment then where you realize that, we spent as marketers, we spent so much time on the tactics and get bogged down and so laser focused on what's our marketing strategy, what's our tactic, but there's so, there must be a point where there's a recognition of it's all about systems and clarity instead.
Jeff Wenberg (06:15)
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that gets overlooked a lot, especially in like the entrepreneurial space is like, you just got to take action and take fast action and all of this stuff. So most people don't slow down enough at the beginning to get super clear on what it is you actually do for people or what it is your product does for people. And they go out to market with like a message that sort of like, well, I mean, it's kind of like this and it does some of this and whatever.
And then that like sort of confusion where, you know, like you're trying to figure it out as you're explaining it, it comes through in your messaging and your content, all that kind of stuff. And it makes people feel that same energy. Whereas if you've talked to somebody where it's like, you know, like 100 % that they understand what value they bring, what transformation they provide, and you know, like with ⁓ certainty that they can do it for you because of how they deliver their pitch or their messaging.
Like, you know when somebody has it super clear because they're crystal clear on what transformation they're providing. And I feel like that's what most people don't get super clear on at the beginning is like, what am I actually providing for people here? So that they can talk about it confidently and that confidence comes through and then creates that confidence in the person that's hearing your message.
Sam Penny (07:32)
And I guess too often we're selling the features and the benefits, but a brand is really creating an emotion. It's a smile in the mind, which is what we so often overlook is getting pulled down into the trenches, playing amongst the weeds. ⁓ How do you feel in terms of creating that emotion through a marketing message?
Jeff Wenberg (07:57)
So usually, and I mean, this is a little bit of an oversimplification, simplification, but it is literally just like, look for what the audience you want to serve, what are they actively searching for, and use their language and meet them there. And show them that you understand that through describing the symptoms they're experiencing, describing the mistakes that they're experiencing, describing all of the feelings that they're experiencing. Don't go over, hey, if you're, know, like,
If your ⁓ conversion rates are super low, it's probably because you suck at copywriting, you know, don't go right to the root cause, go to where they're they're at and meet them there and talk about what they're talking about so that the door opens for you to explain. Yeah, your conversion rate is probably low. And you're experiencing this you're experiencing this and experiencing this, you're probably doing this to try and solve it. But then that's causing this this this and this demonstrate that you understand that whole thing so that then they're like
Oh, man, he totally gets me like, well, what do do that? Because that's where it naturally leads to if you meet them there, create that emotion of like, yeah, I've totally done that. And I always call it the like the OS moment of like, oh, man, I he totally just described exactly what I've been doing. You know what I mean? Like you that's what I want to have happen. So people like self identify of just like, yes, this is totally for me. He totally gets it. And now I want to know what he has to say for the options.
Sam Penny (09:07)
you
It's interesting, Jeff, working with a client at the moment. And the first thing that we did was what are the top 20 questions that customers keep asking in that sales call? And as soon as we started turning that into marketing messages, we saw an increase in the space of six weeks of 50 % in their revenue, just by meeting the customer. And what are the questions that
Jeff Wenberg (09:33)
Mm. Sure.
Sam Penny (09:48)
that they're having. Now, you say that often marketing when it feels inconsistent, it's because the machine doesn't exist yet. Let's talk about this marketing machine. Because it's a big idea. And what is it and how does that come into play?
Jeff Wenberg (10:05)
Yeah, so I mean, like at the end of the day, it's just a system to have content and all of your things happening so that you're bringing people in, meeting them with your messaging, delivering resources that they find valuable and like moving them through your funnel is essentially what it is. Because you need something that's consistently bringing people in the door like leads or it could be views on social media. But somehow your top line moving into, you know, something that gets them into your CRM so that you can ⁓ talk to them and market to them.
and something within that system that converts them into customers. And then once our customers, know, like the full backend onboarding. that's essentially, it's really like a funnel, like outside of just like, here's some pages and some ads, I think of it as more of like a machine where you like, you have to have each part of it working. Otherwise the rest of the parts of it don't work. And that's what I always try to do with my clients to generate consistency in terms of both lead generation and sales.
is you have to have both of those kind of gears turning otherwise, you don't get sales if you don't have leads. And then you don't have leads if you don't have just visibility on whatever platforms you're on.
Sam Penny (11:14)
Before we jump into offer evolution, Jeff, I want you to be honest for a moment. How many times have you been sold on the new shiny marketing tool?
Jeff Wenberg (11:24)
So many times. Like, ⁓ yeah, so it's so easy to like I'm I fall guilty to that all the time as well as like, man, that sounds so cool. And just in my this is just my humble opinion. But I feel like the majority of people could function with just the basic marketing fundamentals and be wildly successful.
Sam Penny (11:25)
Hahaha
Jeff Wenberg (11:50)
but they usually don't do that. They just jump to the shiny object because it sounds cool and it was talked about by somebody they follow on social media. But then they implemented and it doesn't work. And then they're like, well, webinars are dead or email is dead or whatever is dead. And it's like, well, no, you just didn't focus on the fundamentals that go into that system. But if you would have, that probably would have worked.
Sam Penny (12:12)
Yeah, I guess understanding it's it is basically just marketing 101 isn't it? Yeah, understanding what your vision is, what your why is what your core values are? What is that offer that you're giving you know, the the pain point of your customers. Now you talk about the foundational elements of building the machine is the audience the message, the rhythm, the process, walk me through how those fit together.
Jeff Wenberg (12:38)
Yeah, so I mean, again, you kind of can't have most of it without the rest. And a lot of times, like what I see is with clients I work with is they're good at what they do. They have like good offers and like the stuff that people actually get. That's okay. But like where it falls off is in everything prior to that in terms of like, who is this for? And why would somebody want it?
And then how are we going to talk about it so that they see the value in it? And usually that's where most of the work needs to be done. It's not so much in the stuff. ⁓ But I feel like a lot of attention gets put there because you know, like Alex Hermosy puts out a book that's like a hundred million dollar offers and it says you got a value stack and do it. And it's like, he's not wrong. But a lot of times people use that as a tactic to try and get their offer to convert better instead of just really nailing
what their audience actually wants and being super clear on what that transformation is and making sure that their offer can deliver that transformation. But when you dial that in, that's when all of this stuff works together really well and you can create that machine. Similar to like what we're talking about at Leadpages, that's why that system works so well is because we knew what the audience wanted and we delivered that to them and it delivered results to them so that they would then talk about it to other people. They'd sing the praises from the rooftops, you know, because
they were getting their needs met and getting really good results at the same time. And we just kind of met what met like put it all together. So it all worked if that makes sense.
Sam Penny (14:18)
It certainly does. Now you're really in the grassroots of Leadpages and also Zipify apps. Were there commonalities across both of those that you saw?
Jeff Wenberg (14:26)
Yeah, sure.
Yeah. And I know I've said this like, think twice already, but like coming back to it again, the commonality was there was just a gaping need in the market. And these companies just like were like, well, why don't we just fill that? Like we could totally do that. And that's actually, you know, in my 15 year career, like looking back, the super successful ones where selling was easy and lead gen was easy. It was that they knew what their audience wanted.
And then they just kind of came in and were like, cool. I got this thing that will solve that thing that everybody's talking about. And they just joined the conversation that was already starting or already started and delivered something that helped with that. That's like in its most simple form. That's the commonality of any business that I've worked with that's been successful is they had that dialed in. I'm just like, what is our audience talking about? Okay, cool. Let's join in that conversation and offer them something that will solve the problem. Everybody's complaining.
Sam Penny (15:29)
So then if we look at evolution, explain to me exactly what you're doing there.
Jeff Wenberg (15:35)
Yeah, so offer evolution helps online businesses create pitches for their offers without having to like, change and revamp everything they sell. Because like I mentioned earlier, a lot of times it's not the stuff that's usually the issue. A lot of people I work with, they're really good at what they do. They're they are experts. They're just not great at communicating that expertise to somebody that creates demand and creates a sense of like, wow, I really want to buy that.
So what we do in offer evolution is try and figure out, okay, how do we talk about this thing so that it meets people where they're at and creates demand. So that's what the whole process is for.
Sam Penny (16:15)
How much time do you spend in really understanding the customer, interviewing customers before you write copy, before you really try and connect deeply with that customer? How do you get those real honest and useful insights of the audience?
Jeff Wenberg (16:35)
Yeah, so ⁓ the first part of your question of how much time, I feel like this is where most people don't like to do this because it's not super fun and exciting, like building a funnel is and actually going and implementing. But I ⁓ would say 80 % of the time needs to be spent here. Because if you nail this and you get super clear on this, everything else becomes easier.
You know, it's almost like you think of it as like the foundation of a house. If this is rock solid, you could build whatever you want on it. But if it's like still loose and sandy, you could try and build a house, but it's likely going to fall down. So that's why I usually recommend spending as much time there. So you're crystal clear on what it is, you know, your offer ⁓ does for people like what your audience is saying and all that kind of stuff. And how do you get clear on that? Like
what I always recommend my clients do if they aren't clear on this is get on the phone with previous clients with people who are your ideal customer and find out like, what are they trying to do? Like in their words, like what is what are they trying to accomplish? And like in their words, what are the problems they're running into? What are they doing to try and solve it? You know, what are they experiencing in their daily lives because of this like frustration and that kind of stuff? What have they tried before?
You want all of that information so you can weave that into your messaging when you're talking to somebody who's like them.
Sam Penny (18:04)
So if you had to choose what matters more, is it the clarity of your offer or would you say it's the consistency of your message?
Jeff Wenberg (18:12)
Ooh.
That's a good question.
They're both super important. ⁓ Yeah, so, you know, I think the clarity of your message, or I'm sorry, the clarity of your offer helps you to be able to consistently put the message out there. So I don't want to like, you know, ⁓ not answer that question, but it does feel like you kind of need the clarity of what your offer is.
And not just in terms of like, well, you get this and this and this, but like more of like the transformation and the results that it's actually giving people. Because when you get clear on that, then you can like, like you can spitball stuff super easily because you understand what's actually happening and you know, like what, what they experience. But when you're not clear on that, it makes it hard to create content, put your messaging out there, do copy emails and that kind of stuff. Because you don't actually know what it is you're delivering. If that makes sense.
Sam Penny (19:11)
Yeah, certainly does. In the marketing world, and these two sayings have been around for decades and decades, scratch the itch and sell the sizzle. And scratching the itch, really have spoken a lot about really understanding what are the pain points of the customer. But then we look at sell the sizzle and too often ⁓ in many marketers minds, that is really
Jeff Wenberg (19:21)
Hmm?
Sam Penny (19:37)
selling the features and benefits. What is the sizzle to you when you're selling an offer?
Jeff Wenberg (19:43)
The sizzle to me would be
I know this isn't gonna sound like sizzle, but like to me, the sizzle would be like selling that you understand the people you're talking to. Like you understand the symptoms they're experiencing. You understand the things that they're doing to try and solve the problem or the pain they're experiencing. And then adding more sizzle would be, yeah, and I have this thing that makes all of that either go away or it makes it easier to do or it, you know, like makes you more money. Like that.
Those two coupled together is my sizzle.
Sam Penny (20:19)
Perfect. Now, offer evolution. ⁓ It's all about really developing the framework for a marketing machine to generate consistent sales. When you've done all this early work of ⁓ interviewing customers, understanding the pain points, how do you see that really providing the foundation for ongoing and consistent marketing and sales?
Jeff Wenberg (20:45)
Yeah, so like when you talk to people, ⁓ you'll start seeing patterns. And, ⁓ you know, I usually recommend my clients that will do like if they haven't done this already, like 10, at least like 10 calls with people who are their ideal customer. And by like the fifth or sixth one, you'll probably start seeing patterns where you'll be like, I bet they're gonna say this next. And then they'll say something along those lines. It may not always be exactly the same. But like usually there's like
consistent themes. And so usually like that's the key to like really like using this is finding what those themes are. And then when you find those themes, then that's what gets built into all of your marketing and your messaging.
Sam Penny (21:30)
What kind of companies are you working with at offer evolution?
Jeff Wenberg (21:33)
So it's mainly like online businesses that do like coaching or have online programs or consulting and that kind of stuff. So they're more like info based. Yeah.
Sam Penny (21:41)
So where do
you see ⁓ many of these companies bleeding opportunity?
Jeff Wenberg (21:48)
Yeah, that's a really good question. I would say.
So many of the clients I work with have so much potential that they just leave on the table because they're not going all in on this stuff. And then in turn, because they're not clear here, they can't go full throttle on their funnels, their ads, everything else that you need. ⁓ And honestly, you see it all the time. There's like so many brands that are multimillion dollar brands.
and maybe aren't, you know, like the Alex Hermosy or Gary Vee's of the world, but they're still making like boatloads of money. Any any other online business could do the same thing. It's just they've taken the time to really get clear and iron all of this stuff out to then now that it's ironed out, let's press the pedal to the floor and like just go full speed. So I think the biggest opportunity is
like that going 100 % all in on this stuff, getting this all dialed in, getting your messaging dialed in, getting your offer dialed in, figuring out what your audience is talking about and how can I join in that conversation? I think that's the biggest opportunity because I know it's like sort of boring, right? Because it's like, well, yeah, that's like the basics of marketing. But I feel like most people like you mentioned earlier on the silver bullet thing.
And again, I'm like totally guilty of this too. So I feel like that makes it okay for me to say this, but it's like so much more fun to see like, wow, the strategy I just saw on Instagram, I'm gonna go try that while I haven't even dialed in my foundational stuff yet. So it's like almost putting the cart before the horse a little bit.
Sam Penny (23:26)
Yeah.
So give me an example then of a real life example of one of your customers, how they've gone from stuck spinning their wheels to just being able to then have a marketing machine that is generating consistent sales.
Jeff Wenberg (23:55)
Yeah, for sure. So a client of mine, he was kind of like, Oh, approaching zero, you know, $0. And he's like, I think I'm just gonna kind of like, I don't know, I'm gonna throw in the towel, I think, and try and find a job and just, I don't know what else to do. I tried everything. And, you know, for me viewing him, I was like, dude, you you've been doing it, like, what do mean you're at $0. And so as
Sam Penny (24:05)
Hahaha
Jeff Wenberg (24:26)
through like talking through it all, what we found out is he was just talking to the wrong person. He didn't change anything that he was offering. He just changed who he was talking to. He went from like the actual implementers to the CEOs of companies. And then like within, I think it was three months, he added like 20K MRR just by that one change. Yeah, so it's like, it's that powerful. And that's what's...
Sam Penny (24:44)
Well.
Jeff Wenberg (24:52)
sort of why it's been my mission, like I want to focus here because it is so powerful and it can have such a huge impact that that makes it the most fun, but it's usually the area that people spend the least amount of time.
Sam Penny (25:03)
You've seen businesses that have grown really fast. You've also sold your own SaaS company. ⁓ Building these companies, what have you recognized in having systems and businesses that can run without you?
Jeff Wenberg (25:09)
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah, I mean, you have to have them if you want that. Or if you if you don't have that and you want to be tied to your desk for you know, like 18 hours a day. ⁓ Don't go with systems. But I'm not I and I'll be honest, like I'm not really like a systems person. I am like a more of a creative like, I got this idea. Let's just like roll with it. And having to force myself into more of that.
just to save myself from having to, you know, be at my computer all day, every day. And I would say that is kind of like the baseline. You have to have like repeatable, here's what I'm doing for, you know, my content production. Here's what I'm doing for lead gen. Here's what I'm doing to convert those leads into emails and like just work those systems. Like that is, yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yep.
Sam Penny (26:11)
So it's almost like standard operating procedures for marketing.
when we talk about AI, because obviously AI is now all around us, how do you see that starting to impact what you're doing and how your customers are viewing AI?
Jeff Wenberg (26:29)
Yeah, I, I love AI. So just issuing that before I say this, I use it all the time, use it yesterday on my road trip, you know, like I'm all over the place with it. ⁓ But I just feel like a lot of people who maybe don't have the background in marketing, ⁓ or, you know, business, those be like, I'll just put it in chat, GPT, everything will be fine. And it's like, maybe at some point, that will work. But you still have to have the expertise and the knowledge.
or at least just like some thoughts put into it of like, well, is the answer it gave me like actually good? Or did it just spit out something that kind of sounds good, but it's like not that great. And I feel like that's what most people who don't have the background in whatever area they're using chat GPT for AI for, is they're just like, cool, I'll just put it in here and that should be good enough. And it's like, a lot of times,
It says stuff just because it will even tell you, well, I just thought that sounded good. And that's why I answered it that way when you call it out specifically, but it makes mistakes all the time. And if you're not diligent in, you know, over or analyzing its output to say, Hey, I like what you did in paragraph one and two, like, let's say you're writing an email, love paragraph one and two, but the third paragraph, ⁓ it kind of like change directions and it needs to be more like this. You have to go back and forth with it.
You can't just take the first output and be like, cool, I'm all set and now I'm gonna make a million dollars.
Sam Penny (27:58)
If only it was that simple. Do feel that AOI just isn't, doesn't have the empathy to connect with customers?
Jeff Wenberg (28:01)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that's interesting. ⁓ just, yes. Short answer is yes. ⁓ It does a really good job, but yeah, like I feel like that's where you still have to be the person that's manning the ship.
Sam Penny (28:23)
considering putting yourself in the shoes of the listener ⁓ who has been sold on many shiny tools and AI is a perfect example of shiny tools right now. What should they do coming back to today to get a better grasp of what really marketing 101 is of scratching the itch, sell the sizzle. What do you think that they should start?
Jeff Wenberg (28:49)
Yeah, I honestly think they should start just by having conversations with people in their market. And like, most people just don't want to do it because either a they don't want to talk to people. I mean, that's why I got into like internet marketing, because it's like, I don't want to do sales. And then come to find out that's such a huge part of my job. But like, talking to people to just like
Sam Penny (29:12)
Yeah.
Jeff Wenberg (29:16)
have conversations, find out what they're struggling with, what they actually want, you know, all of that kind of stuff. ⁓ That is how you develop the sizzle. Like that is how everybody that you follow has gotten to where they are. like, you know, I bought products from and programs from people that like, for me, I was just like, my gosh, this is like exactly what I'm looking for.
The reason that happened is because they went out and talked to other people who were like me and struggling with the same problem that I had, and they figured out how to communicate it in a way that anybody who's having that problem would be like, my gosh, I have to have that thing. And that's how you develop the sizzle is just by talking to people.
Sam Penny (29:57)
So if we fast forward three years, it's a long way into the future. ⁓ What do you think really the role of the marketer is then?
Jeff Wenberg (30:05)
Man, that's a good question. ⁓ I do think it's still around connection. However, that looks at that point. Because I do think, especially with AI coming in and everything, people are more and more looking for like human connection. And so it could just be, yeah, like, I don't know, marketers. Now it's all just maybe events that bring people together, or maybe it's something, but it's
I feel like it's gonna become more and more important. ⁓ And that's a marketing activity too, is like creating connection with people, whether that's through your written word, whether that's through content or podcasts like this, or ⁓ videos, events, virtual or live, all of that kind of stuff, it all creates that connection. I feel like that is gonna be like one of the things that helps whoever stands out at that point, they're gonna be really good at that.
Sam Penny (31:01)
I think you hit on a great point there of that human connection, which obviously AI cannot do. And we spend so much of our effort on, you know, meta advertising or emails and email campaigns, those kinds of things. But you mentioned events and I'm a big lover of live events and being able to bring people together. When you get a group of customers in a room.
the energy is just electric. How do you, and it's almost like going back to where we were say 20, 30 years ago of running live events. Do you see some of the old ways of marketing coming back in the next few years?
Jeff Wenberg (31:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's even in like my own marketing efforts. ⁓ It all just seems to be going back to the foundational stuff. I'm just like, wow, we've come full circle. And here we are back at webinars and like things like that, where, you know, everyone's been like touting, webinars are dead. It's like, I don't know. ⁓ I'm seeing them work really well. So I think it'll just be a kind of a circle back to what has always worked.
⁓ is what will work in the future,
Sam Penny (32:19)
Talk to me about storytelling because storytelling really is perhaps one of the most foundational components of marketing. How do you weave storytelling into the way that you market yourself, but also the way that you help clients market themselves?
Jeff Wenberg (32:38)
Yeah, mean, like with storytelling, yeah, you have to like use it to connect with emotions and here there we are talking about connection again, but like it's a way to connect with somebody else who maybe doesn't know you yet. And at least like what I found is using stories about yourself, but not just like, hey, I did this and I did this and I did this. And it's like using a story about yourself.
to highlight a point so somebody else can see themselves in the story is the way I would like to use storytelling in any marketing. ⁓ People don't care about me or you, they care about themselves and like what their reading is gonna do for them. But sometimes you can't just say like, know, here's what this is gonna do for you. Like you have to wrap it in a nice story of some kind. And that could be like a short story, a long story, but like some thing it has to be packaged together.
in a way that like brings people through an arc, you know, of like, okay, they understand me. yep, totally. I've had that problem. Exactly. ⁓ wow, they figured out that solution, huh? Okay, I wonder what that solution looks like. And then, okay, cool. Like it brings them to the point over on the other side of the arc of like, wow, I want to get that product or I want to find out more about it. That's what you use storytelling to do.
Sam Penny (33:58)
We look at many companies and we're often told that as a founder, need to remove ourselves from the marketing, not be the face of the company, but one of the most important parts is the founder story. And you spoke about early on a little part of your journey of going from musician to into temp roles and voiceovers, and then into Zipify and lead pages. How...
often and how much do you share your founder journey and your founder story with ⁓ with offer evolution?
Jeff Wenberg (34:31)
You know, I'm going to just be totally honest, I don't do it enough. ⁓ And that's actually so I'm kind of like revamping ⁓ everything currently and leaning more into that. Because essentially, what it does is, I mean, like for me, that would be my authority piece, like to demonstrate like, I do know what I'm talking about. And here's why, you know. ⁓ But yeah, I definitely don't lean into that as much as I should.
Which is also ironic, right? ⁓ Because it's like, that's what I help people with and then I don't do it for myself.
Sam Penny (35:12)
Yeah, do feel that? Yeah, the reason you haven't dived into more of that founder story is because you're so busy. You know, being a founder, you're so busy with so much stuff that you just don't set aside the time to do it.
Jeff Wenberg (35:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would say that's a big piece of it. And then also, you know, I've even had these thoughts of like, do people even really care? And it's like, okay, I don't need to go into the full story. But yes, they do care that like what I'm saying is backed by some kind of experience or knowledge or something.
Sam Penny (35:52)
So before we wrap up, I want to give the listeners some real great takeaways. And for people who want to level up their marketing in this quarter and leave them with something really actionable. So someone who wants to go out today and start building their marketing machine, what do you think that are three steps that they could start to make that happen?
Jeff Wenberg (36:17)
Do some, number one would be do something to find people that you can talk to in your market. ⁓ Whether that be, you know, either past clients if you have them or on social media, just like go find groups that have these, have these people in them, reach out, you know, that kind of stuff. Second thing would be after you've had those conversations, ⁓ figure out does what you're coming to market with or already have in the market, does that align with what they're saying? And then figure out,
Third, are you selling the root cause? Are you selling the, you know, the solution to the symptoms that the people are experiencing? I'd say like those three things will get you super duper far.
Sam Penny (36:58)
What is the most important thing for someone right now to start doing?
Jeff Wenberg (37:02)
talking to their customers. ⁓
Sam Penny (37:04)
Love it.
Jeff, thanks so much. This has been a masterclass in clarity and systems. It's absolutely been brilliant. Now, before we wrap, I want to give you the floor. For anyone who wants to work with you, join your programs or just start following your ideas, where should they go?
Jeff Wenberg (37:24)
Yeah, so I'm at JeffWenberg.com. ⁓ just to spell it, because most people misspell it, J-E-F-F-W-E-N-B-E-R-G. And I'm also on, mainly on Instagram, at IamJeffWenberg. And those are the two best spots.
Sam Penny (37:38)
Fantastic.
Fantastic. I'll make sure I pop those links into the show notes. And if today's conversation gave you some clarity, helped you see where your marketing gaps are, or remind you that systems create freedom, I want you to share this episode with someone building something big. I'm Sam Penny, and this is Built To Sell, Built To Buy. Thanks for tuning in, and I'll see you next time.
