Sam Penny (00:00)
Hi, I'm Sam Penny and this is the Built to Sell Built to Buy podcast. What if the way you're wired, your natural behavior is silently driving every financial and business decision you make. Today's guest believes that behavior isn't just part of the equation, it is the equation. I'm sitting down with Hugh Massie founder of DNA Behavior International. Hugh has spent decades helping leaders, investors and entrepreneurs understand how behavior drives money.
decision making and business performance. His tools have guided thousands of companies worldwide to grow faster, reduce risk and unlock real value. This isn't just for people preparing to sell a business or buy one. If you lead a team, run a company or even just want to make smarter financial choices, what Hugh shares today will give you a powerful edge. So let's get into it. Hugh, welcome to the show.
Hugh Massie (00:55)
Thanks, Sam. It's great to be with you and to be able to talk about how behavior is the denominator to success.
Sam Penny (01:04)
Excellent. Now, Hugh, you started off as an accountant, a CPA. What was the moment that made you realise that behaviour was a missing piece in money and business decisions?
Hugh Massie (01:08)
Yeah.
So in the end of 1999, I'm having breakfast with a friend in Sydney. And she asked me, said, you know, Hugh, you got this wealth management business because that was my career or business after being a chartered accountant or CPA. And said, but I don't think you're really happy. And I said, you know, Sarah, I'm not. And
So she said, what are you really passionate about? And I said, I want to help people all over the world become financially self-empowered. And Sam, I'd never said anything like that before, articulated it. It wasn't something I was walking around going, know, walking around or going for runs thinking I'm trying to articulate this statement. It just came out of my subconscious. But I was on enough of a journey at that time to know that if I said that,
there's something to be done with it. And it was big. And I spent the next year or so reflecting on it, doing some research. And I came out with the realizations that to help people become financially self-empowered was not teaching them about financial literacy things of what's a stock, a bond.
dividends, saving, know, creates more money or that or the typical stuff. It's about teaching people about themselves and that they had a financial personality. And lo and behold, I start looking in my day journal that I've been writing for the past few years since I'd left the accounting world. And there was all this stuff about human behavior.
and that people have a natural hardwired behavior. There's learned behaviors that you pick up, you know, some of it early in life, some in later in life. How does that all that well together? I was writing about profiling, psychometric instruments, didn't like most of what was out there. So I was boiling up to something. And I also reflected on my career as an accountant and then a financial planner or wealth manager around personalization, you know, that
My success as a CPA was dealing with complex tax advice was how to customize the advice for different people in the same organization to had to read it and pay for it. And I knew instinctively that was different. know, some people just need one page, a diagram and the answer.
and another person needs to read 50 pages. And the same is true in financial planning, you know, anywhere that you're providing advice, building a relationship with clients, you need to know how to communicate with them and that everyone has got different predispositions that come to the table. So intuitively knew those things. And then I also could see that money cause stress for people.
And I needed to help people deal with that. And you know, the whole money conversation stressful. So that's what got me to human behavior, I distilled it all down to that. And that it starts with your natural instinctive behavior. And luckily, I met a psychologist as I had come to all those conclusions for myself, who confirmed all of that. And I said, Okay, Carol, then
you know, you're hired, this is Friday morning, come and work with me on Monday. And so she did. And we started building a system in the office there in Sydney. And then she said, you need to meet these people in Atlanta, they can help you with psychometrics and validation and universities and all that. 40 flights in four years from Sydney to Atlanta, essentially, and then going around talking to people about this. I get a system, I invest in the technology and bang,
That's this is my life. And that's how it all unpacked.
Sam Penny (05:08)
Wow. So you've shared that losing your father at a young age had a really profound impact on you. So how did that experience shape the work that you do today?
Hugh Massie (05:13)
Yeah.
That's a very ⁓ insightful, insightful question, because not long in the journey, I asked one of my mentors here in America, said, so why am I so interested in youth development? And and and Lee said to me, it's because you didn't have a father here and all the dots connected and that I wanted to be able to help other kids ⁓ deal with
their life, you know, have a mentor in their life to shape and guide them and, you know, to walk the journey because I didn't have that. But it wasn't really Sam until so I always had the passion for all of that and was quietly helping people with it. But it was not until four years ago that I was doing podcasts or what I call identity conversations like this with with clients, six in a row.
in September 2021 in that time were men at that time. They were a boy without a father. And one of them had done a doctorate in this and his father had left the home when he was one, never saw him again. Mother left with a ⁓ ton of kids. And so Greg did PhD in this and out came the six in this year.
And you know that you can be very aggressive. There's literacy issues in learning difficulties, social integration issues, obesity, and so on. And it gets worse the earlier the father leaves the home. And so I thought, gee, I had elements of all of those things. And in fact, my mother in her own book, The Globetrotter, ⁓ and my mom's still alive at 94,
alludes to some of that because a psychologist, you know, the school teachers that when I was a kindergarten, were pointing it out saying to her, you know, did your son have some traumatic event? Yes, he did. He lost his father 18 months ago. And and my mom is actually pregnant with my brother when my dad died of a brain tumor. But so in a way, I had to I suppose from that time, I fully embraced what happened I owned up to
how I was as a brother more to my brother. ⁓ You know, to my mother and to my own being as to why am I doing this work? It's, it's more than just giving people a profile. I think that's what you're alluding to. ⁓ And that the message being, we shouldn't be a victim, we should be a victim and how, okay, it's not great. My father died. But it put me in a place where where
I can go and do stuff in the world and that in the way the best thing I can do is to honor him. And by doing, by doing something great, whatever that is. And I think that carries with me today. And that's what I would really say to others is you don't have to be a victim of any circumstances you need to, but you need to embrace the life history you've got. Cause it's all different for all of us and go out there and do something with it.
And that's the message around boys without fathers. But, you know, it's very shaping to me and even just talking in the prior conversation I had in the podcast with somebody else this afternoon, we're talking about how we bring social impact into our lives and our work for our own wellbeing. But as humans, really, I don't think, Sam, anyone escapes some traumatic event somewhere. And we need to understand
life events from that perspective, embrace them ⁓ and then go and do something fantastic.
Sam Penny (09:13)
So then for listeners who are new to DNA behavior, how would you explain that concept in simple terms?
Hugh Massie (09:20)
So the DNA behavior and what the theory was, and it's more than the theory because it's been proven now, is that at the point of conception, in your mother's womb, you get handed a set of genes. But from thereafter, the life experiences that go on until about the age of three.
shape your hardwiring, the core of who you are, very greatly. by the time you're about three, the neural pathways in your brain are largely shaped. So think of it as in American terms, the Rocky Mountains are set where they are and the Mississippi River is flowing where it's going to flow. ⁓
in your brain. So that's largely set. Not a lot you can do about it. You can do you can and that's where you're to go to under pressure. When you're emotional, stressed, whatever. It's also going to be where your greatest talents reside. But there's also learn behaviors, but for helping people not be a victim be a victor.
they need to know what their strengths are, they need to know what their struggles are, how to manage themselves. And it comes back to understanding your raw talents. And I think that when you understand those and get aligned to them, you can start to go and do and you know what you're passionate about, you can start to go and do great things in life. And that's the that's the foundation. And that's why the company is called DNA behavior. It's not, you know, if I said that mix of ⁓ genetics and experiences between
zero and three, it's probably 20 % genetics and 80 % the experiences. ⁓ So you don't but you don't have to be even know that you might we might say well you're that sort of relatively what you're born with or shaped with. You don't have to accept all of that you can move beyond that if you want to do the hard work.
But I think there's strengths that come with it and there's the struggles and that's the challenge in life is to manage all of those things. So in a way to turn yourself on to do great things and not flip the switch in a way in which you live with with, with, you know, with a cup half full.
Sam Penny (11:36)
now we've got some great background, Hugh. Let's dig into the big idea that behavior doesn't just influence money, it drives it. You say that behavior drives money. Can you unpack that for us? What does it really mean in practice?
Hugh Massie (11:50)
I look at it that might, know, there's a few, there's a few dimensions here to unpack Sam, that money can be looked at as a currency. It's just what is in your bank account. Money is behavioral. Money is in a way what you think of it. It's your life perspectives. So if you have a life perspective of I'm going to go and have lots of life experiences out there in life, that's going to drive some of your spending. So that's going to drive what money means to you. For other people, relationships are very important.
that's going to drive their perspective on, you know, building relationships and spending money for that. ⁓ Other people that it's about impact. So that's where you you're going to invest. So your mindset for life and your life perspective shape a lot of the financial choices that you make. And so you know, so in a way, your life perspective and money are intertwined.
money is also an energy that is over you 24 by seven money doesn't go away. It's something that is in your conscious talk and thoughts all the time, but it's also in your subconscious that you're processing when you're asleep. And that's why I sometimes joke to people that money never sleeps. Well, it doesn't in some ways in the sense that it's being invested, if it's being invested, it's growing. But it actually in the psychological or mental sense, spiritual sense, however you want to put it.
it's working away. And if you have bad thoughts about money, bad things will happen around money. If you have good thoughts and manifest the right way, great things can happen. But money is always there.
Sam Penny (13:29)
So what are then, Hugh, some of the common ways that business owners, investors, and everybody else make financial mistakes because they just don't understand their behavioral wiring.
Hugh Massie (13:41)
Yeah, so they make behavioral that's it because they don't understand their behavioral wiring. And I think that, you know, a good case in point for, let's say, a CEO of a company ⁓ who's responsible for the company setting the direction, ultimately all of the decisions, how she or how he or she is wired around money will influence the financial outcome of the company ⁓ significantly.
And you know, if you take the simple example of, you know, how much money is going to get invested in innovation, are we going to take the risk on innovation is going to come from the financial attitude of the people at the top. And starting with the CEO, or how much do we talking about culture, because culture is really important to the success of a company. Culture needs to be invested in the people need to be invested in. If you want to create warmth in the business, you got to invest.
some money in that to create it. It doesn't mean we're creating kindergarten. And I'm not saying that we have to have slot machines and beanbags everywhere and the beer tap running the whole time for to be a good culture. But you have to invest in your and care about your employees well being and create the situation for them to flourish. so money is playing a role. the financial behavior of the leaders is important. And
We did a research study last year, and we continue to do it, of the S &P 500 companies. So what we did was we took our digital scan product, we got the names through public data sources of every S &P 500 company leader. We got the accounts of the company, and we could see from their behavioral styles, and which companies outperform profit wise compared to competitors, and in fact in the overall.
that certain behavioral traits got stronger, the more the company outperformed. And so that's why I would say that behavior makes money. And what the leaders are doing does influence the profits of the company. And I think while a lot of us would intuitively know that,
but it is actually set in stone. It actually is the truth. so in a way, like going back to the start, Sam, I think behavior is the denominator. you know, can't, know, investors are always saying, well, I'll invest in good leadership teams. Well, what's the good leadership team? Have they got the right mix of behaviors? You know, financial behavior is part of that. ⁓ How they show up as leaders.
Sam Penny (15:59)
you
Hugh Massie (16:23)
that can all be measured and looked at. I think you can get much more insight to a company if you're looking at buying a company ⁓ by looking through the lens of not just the accounts, but the people that are there that are going to continue to run the thing. ⁓ And while sellers of businesses may be not as interested in that because they just want to get the hell out of there, but they could do more to present themselves well, you know, from a behavioral ⁓
sense not only in how they just present but also the structure to make their business more valuable.
Sam Penny (17:00)
So what about then when stress levels really rise, how does someone's natural behavior show up in their money making decisions?
Hugh Massie (17:09)
So if, for example, if you are, so I just know from personal situations, right, I'll just use some case studies, but this is a crop would be a true across the board. So whenever I've been put in a corner and I am at ultimate stress, I will go to ⁓ risk taking and goal setting propensities like minor way off the chart, ⁓ strong.
and rationalizing the situation and just saying, okay, this is X has happened, my back is against the wall. What's my choice going to be? And in a situation I had four years ago, where I had to do that in a sort of coaching myself exercise, getting some input from others, I lined up the three options. And at the end of the day, I took the high risk course. But every time I've been successful in those high stress situations, that's what I've gone and done. Now,
That's me, but other people under under stress, if they are a spender of money, might go and throw more money at the problem. ⁓ If someone's an innovator, so some people are just outright innovators, they will go and invest more time and thought into how I innovate out of the problem. ⁓ Others are going to to deal with it collaboratively. Let's have let's have groupthink to, you know, to solve this. So
Stress is going to send you back to the corners of your hard wiring. And that's probably what's going to dominate the decision making and how you behave because that's what you're comfortable with. And when you're under stress, you're not thinking in a lot of ways you just go back and you just do stuff. It's almost you can think of it like you're in a tennis in like I'm being I play quite a lot of tennis and I'm trying to get better at my backhand.
Well, okay, it's one thing in drills when there's no pressure just to keep nailing the backhands. But you're in the middle of a point and the ball's coming fast at you and it's bouncing and whatnot, or sliding. You just go back to your instincts and do that. Or you're a golfer like I play golf too. And I'm a risk taker. So I'm ⁓ stuck under trees. What shot do I play? Do I just punch it out and take the cautious play? Or
Or do I try and do the hero shot, right? My instinct would be to do the hero shot. But I've learned to manage myself and just punch it out and take my chance on the next shot. Right. But that's what the hardwiring is, that instinctive behavior. It's, unless you're very conscious of it and aware of it, it's just going to override what you do.
Sam Penny (19:56)
So if behavior drives money and the way that we handle it, it must also shape the way that we lead and grow a business. let's talk about how your DNA insights actually apply in the business world. How do you help business leaders identify their own behavioral style? But also why is that step so critical?
Hugh Massie (20:18)
so if you know, if we take it that that that Sam, it starts at the top. So, you know, if I'm going to help an organization transform or get to a new place, reset its goals, build new products, or just improve the culture in the business, optimize it, I'm going to
get the CEO to complete the DNA profiles. It only takes 10 to 12 minutes now. It used to take 30 minutes, but it's pretty quick. That's going to give me the readout on how's this person thinking? Are they a results orientated person? How relationship focused are they? Because if they're more of a people person, they'll be thinking about protecting the corporate culture first. They're with the results person. They're going to be thinking about the numbers and
looking at the accounts and transactions and whatnot, unless thinking about its impacts on people or that the causes of it might be people. ⁓ If they're very anchored, they're going to get stuck on, well, this is what we've always done well. So we're not moving from that. Or are they creative? So that's the starting point ⁓ to help transformation. And then I'm going to want to read on every person in the business.
Now, with the C suite, you can probably get them to do profiles and some of the teams. But now we have this what I call digital scan product where the profile can actually be completed by AI at a pretty high level of accuracy. I can create a psychometric based heat map of the whole organization. And that might start to tell you that actually the real problem in this in a particular business is in sales.
that we've got the wrong mix of people for doing sales for the type of company it is. Or very often it's in customer support, you know, in some client facing area is usually where problems are. And looking at that through the lens of the people ⁓ is important. And, you know, I had my lesson with this very early on in one of the first projects I did. It was actually in Sydney with one of the major consulting firms.
that came to us and said, Look, we we we are great at getting new clients, but we don't hang on to our business more than a year. That's big when you're talking. It wasn't Accenture, but it was a firm like that. To give everybody a bit of an insight. And we've got high people turnover. Okay, so I then get the 25 top leaders in a room.
and they all did a profile and 21 out of the 25 were low on trust. And if you have low personal trust, so they're all dominant, big, big hard charging bulls. But but but a consequence of that those people are often skeptical. And they actually have some sort of lack of inner confidence. That's why often they seek to dominate and manage through fear. Then and go to transit and sort of the transactional side rather than
trusting in people and if you don't trust yourself, others won't trust you. ⁓ So if you don't trust yourself, you won't trust others and others won't trust you. It's a vicious circle. And that's what going on. But with a leadership team, 21 out of the 25 low on trust, that was a big wake up call for me. And it showed that it connected to every problem in the business. And you know, we talked about that in the room and they had to make a decision. Do we hire a people culture manager to help them?
That became really what the discussion was about. didn't know that. I knew the problem going in, but I didn't know that's where we were going to get to with the conclusions. And it happened that the firm didn't hire the people culture manager because the leaders didn't want to spend the money on it in the end. Even though they agreed it would be a good idea, they didn't want to do it. And it was really coming from the CEO.
Then two months later, he gets terminated for a whole lot of these people culture issues. So you go and understand, right? So it and that's where you know, it does become a financial issue because it crosses over there that you've got all these business problems of, okay, you're great at getting new business, but you start you losing clients. Well, that's no, no good if they lost after a year, you've got poor, poor retention there, and you and you're losing people.
that's expensive recruiting people. And why wouldn't you put one extra person in there to help with people culture and give that person some say in the room about, you know, the temperature of the company and manage it better.
Sam Penny (25:16)
So when it comes to teams, that was a great example that you just gave about a blind spot that really was in this firm. What are some of the other main blind spots that you see leaders have when it comes to the behavior of the organization and the behavior of them as a leader that end up really costing them money or opportunities?
Hugh Massie (25:39)
So I think one right now that's probably sort of poignant is innovation and that, you know, you can have a founding team that's been great. They might've been there a long time. They've built the business up. you know,
certain product range work really well and then derivatives of that product range work really well. But the business environment changes, technology changes, we're now in a world that's full of AI. ⁓ We're going to see major CRM type companies. You can see it going on with Intel. They're potentially dinosaurs sitting there.
And that's because the leaders are stuck in what they know. They're listening, they're looking at the accounts, which is telling you the past. And no one's telling you about the future. And so in a way you need to, and because the leadership is anchored, you've got a person at the top that's sort of ruling the game by fear. In one side being an autocrat type leader or ⁓ high on authority bias is the technical term.
or you've got someone actually not strong enough to influence the change. So they keep on doing what they're doing and they're scared to work out where do we need to invest in a way they need to separate themselves from what's there now. And just look at it coldly as to what does this need to be in the future and maybe we need to build a new product and invest in something different and it may need new people and that's where
I think bringing up it probably the person to do that in the business, the head of AI or the head of innovation may already be a younger person in the business that's seen enough of how the business works. But they're closer to the game on technology, the future direction, and they need to be nurtured to be able to have those conversations with the leadership. But in a way, do it separate from what the business does now so they can have free thinking.
you've got to have a lot of psychological safety with that as well. again, if there's a lot of shutdown of conversations in the built into the way the businesses run, and then the feedback loops, this all comes tumbling down, that's it. That's a problem. So I'd say that, you know, from a behavioral point of view, financial behavior, because it's really investing in the innovation and taking risks.
this needs to be where there's investment. it doesn't mean that you dream up an idea and go out a big straightaway. It can be done with lots of experiments. ⁓ And some of the better businesses do, you know, multiple experiments every week ⁓ till they see something firing up. And so I think that's probably a big one to be looking at. And if I was an investor in a company, I'd be wanting to look at is this company, you know,
thinking about these things and are they going to be able to move themselves into a new world? you know, the research shows Pricewaterhouse research says 42 % of CEOs think their company of major companies think their companies at risk of not being there tomorrow. That's an opportunity for them to do something, but it's also an opportunity for smaller nimble businesses to get in place and move straight past some of these dinosaurs.
Sam Penny (28:55)
you
So that really involves quite a significant cultural shift within a business. So how does culture really affect the value of a business then?
Hugh Massie (29:15)
I think culture is a big determinant of ⁓ the value of a business. I think that Sam, in my mind, culture is a word that's ⁓ very liberally. And everyone says, I've got a great culture. What does that really mean? And is it a culture that ⁓ is investible in, I suppose? And so I would bring it back to the culture of a company.
is is part of it is what differentiates the company and how you do things compared to everybody else. You know, if you are a huge CRM example, if you're in the CRM, you know, relationship management, customer relationship management business, what differs between your product and somebody else's? Okay, it can be a few features, you know, etc, etc. But there's something about the way in which you do it.
and deliver it and manage it, price it as a business that is reflective of your culture. And so that's what ⁓ is important that your culture is actually differentiating how you do things as a business. know, for example, in our business, a big part of our culture of no engage and grow is also built on
the fact that that the behavioral profiles that I talked about before are shared by every person in the business. So if you're the CEO, and you're not prepared to do your own profile, that's a no no straight away. But if you're not prepared, if you're prepared to do it, but not share it doesn't work.
what we're trying to do is build an open culture where everybody is openly sharing about who they are, building deep bonds. That's a cultural shift in how behavioral profiles are delivered. And when I started in the wealth management business, I said, we as advisory business will give our clients our profile across the table.
before we get a client to do it. Because 25 years ago or 24 years ago when I started, people weren't used to doing this. But it's still the success formula today, the advisors and coaches that are successful with what we do, share themselves with the client. It's not about them, but they share something. And so it becomes an equal exchange. And that gets people talking. And that's really what you want inside a business too. It is no different.
And so if you've got people who are scared to share who they are, that's a problem. Because that's saying that there's some fear based leadership there, or there's going to be recriminations for sharing an idea. That's the immediate shutdown of a business. And if I was an investor, I'd be looking for all those telltale signs in the business. A conversation shut down. If they are, innovation won't flourish. And probably the people are flourishing. And they're just there, ticking a box and hoping.
Sam Penny (32:23)
Hugh you've said that one of the keys to unlocking real growth in a business is adopting and what you call exponential mindset. So let's explore what that means because you talk about the importance of an exponential mindset. How do you define that compared to incremental growth that most leaders are used to?
Hugh Massie (32:43)
So, know, if you want, keeping it simple, but I think it's bigger than this, there's a book out there by Dan Sullivan, 10X is better than 2X. So 2X is talking about optimizations, talking about linear type growth. Okay, let's grow by 20 % a year next year. Easy to set a budget for that. And, you know, we just need to add on another 20, 30 clients, not lose any or whatever the numbers are, you're just looking at the existing metrics. Or you go for 10X growth.
and say, okay, that might mean that our ideal clients different, we're going to need different technology, we're going to need some different people somewhere doesn't mean you jettison everything you've got. But your mindset now becomes more expansive. And I would be saying, okay, why not think about how you can have 10x growth for 10 years. That's that's going from one to a billion. Right. And so part of that it's part of it is thinking beyond yourself.
massive scale. And I would say even if you fail in that, you get 10 % of that, you've done better. 10 % of you know, the 10 by 10 for nine years is better than the 2x every year, right? So you're going to do better if even if you get 10 or 20 % of the way, right?
and probably had more fun. And I think as you were saying, you know, to me before tested the boundaries, you got to get through the monkey speak that's in your head. Can I, can I really do this? Is it possible? Am I bullshitting myself? Right? ⁓ Because because I did it, I you know, and I did this exercise with my team at the end of 2023. I said, what does it look like if we had a billion people in our database? And
They said, well, Hugh, that's a good idea. I said, Okay, well, how would we do it? AI, right? That was the immediate answer. And we had in fact, built a model in 2017 to do it, but technology wasn't there. And we had a client that didn't want to go down that path with us. So I sort of mothballed that we got busy COVID comes all the all the usual things. But then, you know, AI is coming along. And we realize that the world is limitless for us. Now we can put a tailor made suit.
on every person. And the friction for us had been having profiles completed. And I was very, you know, to this point of leaders not changing, very wedded that every person had to complete the profile, the questions don't change. This is the process. You buy into it or you don't buy into it. And while I will never waver on the on the beliefs around natural hardwired behavior, and that the that the profile we have people complete is the king.
in terms of the most accurate readout using AI, we can have, you know, hundreds of millions of people in the database over five years very quickly. And even this year, we've got 275 million people in there right now. And we will have over 300 by the end of the year because of that thinking. Now that changes how we price to clients what we do for
Sam Penny (35:59)
So then.
Hugh Massie (36:00)
And don't
need to be rocket scientist to say, okay, we're in. And it was always about, I think, Sam, in setting goals, human impact goals. That if you can impact more lives, you probably make more. And that's the way to think about it rather than saying, okay, I want to make a billion dollars. Okay, why and so what? But gee, I want to impact a billion lives. Just maybe you might make a billion dollars, right?
But even if you only make 10%, 10 % of that, great, well, you're far ahead and you've had a good time and you've helped a lot of people.
Sam Penny (36:36)
Really insightful there, Hugh, and I really enjoyed that because it comes down to, in essence, understanding your why and why you're going out to achieve not a billion dollars, but to impact more people or make greater change. What then are some of the biggest mental barriers that really stop business owners from making that leap into what you call exponential thinking?
Hugh Massie (37:02)
So I've been looking at that around why do startups fail? I've been doing some work with somebody on that. But I think it's for more than startups, because startup is a pretty broad ⁓ definition or scope. I think that leaders actually don't think big enough, and founders don't think big enough.
And it's, it's, it's, it's small thinking to start with, you know, I, when I started DNA behavior, I thought, yeah, I want to help people be financially empowered all over the world. Self empowered, a million people would be great. Right? Well, now look at where the thinking is now. It was probably okay to start at that time to start with a million people because that was a lot for where technology was at. But we part we well went through that goal.
But I think you can think, if we can get people to think much bigger, that's it and have the confidence. And then some, of course, your accountant or the very detailed engineers are going to come up and say, well, how do you actually do that? And we're to be overwhelmed and whatnot. A little bit, you've got to say, don't worry about that. If we get our purpose, right, we build the right relationships and we've got a technology that can be scaled. Things will take care of themselves.
you're going to come into the right people that are going to help you on the journey, you know, a business partner comes into play, right? ⁓ If you try and sit there and predict everything that could happen and got particularly go wrong, ⁓ you never will you'll get there. So it's sort of back to where we will sort of started some of this conversation, I think Sam is now be prepared to stretch your own boundaries and keep on stretching them and we all can do way more.
than we think we can. And in a way is to think is to think limitless. I think that is that is the the opportunity and to and then to figure out, okay, how do I do that? That's kind of scaling. To make that happen. And you just strip away every friction that's in the way.
Sam Penny (39:13)
Sounds good in theory, Hugh, but for someone listening, they feel stuck in their incremental thinking and their incremental growth. What then would be the first behavioral or even a mindset shift that they should really make right now?
Hugh Massie (39:15)
Yeah, it does.
Maybe the first thing is to is almost to is to one step is just for momentarily or for a little period shut out everything you've learned and get out a clean sheet of paper and fill that in. And and and and and that that's what I would do it. But at the end of the day, in in terms of ⁓ then executing, you've then got to bring back what have you done?
and you know, what are some of the lessons. But I think that that needs to be shut out because if the noise of the past, it's a bit like, you know, all of us becoming entrepreneurs, we can you can listen to your family and they would say, well, you know, you went and did accountancy at university, you became a really good accountant, you could make you could do really well and have a great life for yourself and you've
other family members have all been professions, you've just limited yourself to that world. And in a way, you've got to shut be prepared to shut that noise out for a while. Start with a clean sheet of paper and figure out what you want and then come back and say, Okay, how do I make the transition from one to the other? But you do need to have you have clarity of purpose, Sam, I think to do that.
Sam Penny (40:49)
So then give me an example where a leader has really embraced this exponential thinking that you're talking about and how it then changed their trajectory.
Hugh Massie (41:00)
So I'm working with ⁓ some at the moment because they use our product. And they're often the people ⁓ that I coach. And one person's building, for example, in middle of building a community-based product. And he would have looked at this as very narrow in terms of how can I get my neighborhood, people in my neighborhood using something that's the equivalent of.
Facebook, but it's not got all this transactional stuff in there and advertising, you know, he would have been thinking thousands of people, as opposed to saying, no, I'm going to have an interconnected community of 100 million people. And what does that look like? And then it's just working backwards to say, okay, how's he going to get those people in there? And we've got a unique strategy for doing that, ⁓ in terms of how large groups are on board and how organisations are on board.
But it changed what we did there was we changed his thinking from a one by one, very B2C thinking to a B2B type thinking to get the numbers up. And so that's, that's a step there that also affects the technology design. ⁓ And perhaps part of the problem for people, Sam is that they've got legacy systems. And they're stuck in a certain path because of legacy technology.
and the breakout is going to be, okay, you're going to have to make some investment. It doesn't need to be a lot, right? But it does need to be something.
Sam Penny (42:28)
So.
look, this bigger picture ⁓ thinking it's really inspiring, but I know for you, it's not just about business, it's values and identity. I'd love to ask you more than about your work with Mentoring Boys Without Fathers, because beyond business, you're mentoring boys without fathers. What inspired you to really start this initiative?
Hugh Massie (42:57)
So the mentoring the boys with our fathers came back to some of what we were talking about before that. I didn't have a dad. ⁓ I went to an all boys boarding school in Sydney. ⁓ You might have heard of it, the King's School. So I was lucky to go there, I think, to be honest. But you don't get...
Sam Penny (43:14)
Yep.
Hugh Massie (43:24)
that kind of mentoring, although I was in a boys environment, I think that probably helped ⁓ in some ways, but it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, one by one walking the journey with you. And I was lucky I got a stepfather came into my life when I was the year before I finished school. So he helped and opened up my world to a whole lot of opportunities that I've not always had. I became a lifesaver, for example, you on the beach, because I could swim okay, and I like going to the beach.
you know, golf and all these sorts of doors opened up, you know, business leaders and people that he networked with it showed me pathways. But a kid without without a dad doesn't have he was a stepfather more of a friend doesn't have anybody. And so and then you know that there's the trauma that you've got to go past. I probably didn't think a lot about the traumas when I was younger, but I could see looking back. Yeah, that's why I was more
introverted, shy, was a bit more aggressive, not at school, but probably with my brother. It was just frustration. It was more the what it was with the situation. And so, you know, then seeing that there are many others in this place and that the society issues that we've got today, like some of the crime and things is because there are so many kids.
that are getting out on the streets at age 10 and 12 with really bad habits, bad mindsets, doing terrible things that lead them into gangs and whatever else. That needs to be that problem needs to be solved. And it's it's it's universal. ⁓ I help because of tennis, I help a tennis professional that came from Ghana that I discovered also as a boy without a father. I mean, he this man, Enoch.
at 10 years old was sleeping in a bus shelter and going getting the scrap food from left, you know, thrown out by restaurants and whatnot, and just scavenging essentially a 10. Someone picked him up, and he became a tennis professional, right? College.
⁓ scholarship to the United States on the circuit, blah, blah, and now he's giving back. And so I help him, you know, in lots of ways doing that, because we're now impacting 3000 kids a year in Ghana to potentially have that impact. The same thing's going on in the US in educational fields. So that's why it does run deep. But it's because I had that experience, but I don't want to see anybody play victim.
Sam Penny (46:02)
So then what have you learned about behavior and resilience through mentoring the business leaders do you think could take into their own organization?
Hugh Massie (46:10)
Yeah, well, I think I think resilience is is something in its own right that that that is a determinant of success or failure, particularly for entrepreneurs where you just can't run away from the problem. But I think that when when when shit comes up, things get difficult. You need to be able to have a positive mindset, come back to your purpose.
and be able to dust off mistakes, or that something, you know, went wrong, you know, whether it was brought on you or you caused it. I mean, it's usually related. ⁓ And, and looked for the positive in it, and say, Okay, this has been a black cat cloud moment, something hanging over me, but I can now turn this turn this into silver lining, or, as we say, in America, you know, turn a lemon into lemonade.
That's, think, is an important mindset. I think that leaders can do more in their businesses for social impact. And this is not just charitable giving. This is doing stuff that is growing the business in revenue, but is having enormous positive social impact. And you can build that into how you sell, deliver your products, the types of products you have.
and expand your business into a whole lot of networks that may not have otherwise been open to you. So just have a broader thinking of that.
Sam Penny (47:38)
So then how does identity and values show up in decision making? Not just in CEOs, but also in young people.
Hugh Massie (47:46)
I think the values are non-negotiable of how you're going to operate and in a way how you're to decide. I look at, like a value for me is having open and mutual relationships with people. If relationship can't be open and mutual, I don't want anything to do with it. ⁓ Reliability is something that's really important to me in that sense. your identity...
is something that's even more than your values and your purpose. It's about how you it's really almost Sam getting to your personal brand. How do you want to be seen in the world? ⁓ How you want to be held accountable and so it's a higher pedestal. It's almost what you're aspiring to be. And when you can get that right,
So there's a functional side to it. You your identity is not like for me, it's not he was an accountant, a tax specialist or a lifesaver or sports person, you know, it's not the functional things. It's more, it's more a state of being. And that takes a little while to evolve, but our identity does evolve. But once you've got that set, that's going to govern all decision making, right? Because that's where your reputation is going to be on the line.
And that's going to drive a lot of your behavior. And so if you're really clear about who you are at that identity level of how you want to be seen, how you are going to intentionally show up, that will drive everything. And when you care about that, that's also something that's important. Then then things will, you know, things are going to really flourish and you'll find the right people connect to you then to to grow with them.
And you know, the identity is personal, you know, we don't have to be building our identity in the same way that Warren Buffett or, you know, Jeff Bezos or anyone did it's it's about you. ⁓ But it will affect how you show up, how you decide and you know who you connect with.
Sam Penny (50:00)
So then let's talk about mentoring because you believe that mentoring is important in the boardroom, but also in the community. how does that show up?
Hugh Massie (50:10)
it's, you know, leaders or entrepreneurs coming to me, you know, looking for guidance. And I think that, you know, for me, the practice of it is for me to understand how they're wired, some of their life journey is to get on the same side of the table as them and to be able to
to be empathetic ⁓ to their situation. I may not have in all cases experienced what they've experienced, but I've learned through Gestalt language protocols to be able to tell a story for them to see that one, I'm understanding, but also maybe in that story.
is a message for them and how they've got to go and decide. I think the mentoring is not telling somebody what to do, but it can be imparting some wisdom. It's probably going a step further than coaching, which is asking people, you know, insightful questions to get them to think for themselves. The mentor might go further at imparting some wisdom, but it needs to be done with, as I said, gestalt, sharing, sharing stories because no one wants to be told what to do.
So that's, that's how I would that's how I approach the mentoring. And it would be no different with an 18 year old that needs some guidance, or a 60 year old CEO that's trying to sort out some massive problem. You know, I think that's getting people to so in a way, the mentors going to help people also emotionally connect to themselves and to what the problem is, I think that's probably an important part to
Sam Penny (51:40)
So here we've looked at the past, present. Now I want to look ahead because the world, as you said earlier, the world is changing very fast, especially with technology and AI. So where is all this heading with AI and technology moving so fast? How do you see behavioral insights being scaled and applied in the next, let's say next five to 10 years?
Hugh Massie (52:02)
I think that with for us having the digital scan product, meaning that there's no friction in getting a profile on anybody, I could go and run the scan on you, Sam. ⁓ I haven't done it because, you know, I wanted to ⁓ respect the conversation. But if you take a bank like Commonwealth Bank in Australia or ⁓ JP Morgan or
Wells Fargo, whoever it is, NatWest Bank, Take a Bank's got enormous databases of people. And they want to provide customized experiences for people from lead generation, you know, the marketing process, onboarding a ⁓ client, the right client, serving them through the lifecycle. Through through understanding the person's behavior, not just how much money they have and whether they're male or female from demographics.
you can emotionally connect to them. So for us, we are now wanting to deploy or are deploying the AI driven digital scan across massive databases to help these organizations better connect with people.
and put a tailor-made suit on them out the gate. And AI allows us to have the scan to do it, but AI allows us, or allows the deployment of those insights so that when all these so-called AI agents turn up to serve people, they're programmed to put the tailor-made suit on every person. And it doesn't just have to be that the AI agents got a personality, which some of them are starting to have.
But they understand the personality of every person they're dealing with and how to deal with every interaction. And that's, for me, is where human behavior is going to play the game.
Sam Penny (53:54)
So if we're looking then Hugh at a large organization, for example, and one of the things that has often been said about AI is that it will replace the graduate entry ⁓ employee. Now with AI potentially replacing those people, and you spoke earlier about being able to bring young people up through the ranks to lead the company who better skilled at what the technology is.
How do you see organizations balancing that mix of AI and the future leadership of an organization?
Hugh Massie (54:31)
Well, it's an it's an extremely difficult challenge because you know, these organizations are looking to use AI to cut costs. And that's what's going on now. And I think that's why you sort of see firms like Pricewaterhouse, Deloitte's, consultants, Goldman Sachs, whoever, hiring less people, as you say, so in the short term, it does cause a problem for people going to university who thought they'd get a job in these great training shops.
and only 10 % of the jobs are available. But I think that as AI proliferates, the nature of the jobs will change. depending on which businesses are successful, they will employ more people in roles that use AI and technology.
in a sort of simple, I suppose, in a simple one simple analogy of it is which also gets to the ethics of AI as well is ⁓ is going to need to be more like I said that to my nephew, you know, who works at a bank, I said, you you're a math, you did mathematics at school, you're pretty good at it. I'd be doing I'd be skills skilling up in data. So whole lot of opportunities in every business is going to up and up around
how data is managed to feed AI the right way. Human behavior will become important because every AI solution is biased. An ethical problem with AI now is because it requires so much energy, is what data is actually being remembered, what information is being remembered when solutions are provided, is it the full story? So there's going to be...
more tech roles there, there's going to be AI and ethics management, I think the nature of the roles will change, but there might be short term drop off for the younger people. You know, if you had a dream of becoming a lawyer out of university or a tax specialist, that world's changed. The challenge will be is when judgment decision making is required, are there enough people who have got the capabilities to make a judgment call on something?
because AI sort of cut out all the roles on the way through, you know, if there was 100 tax advisors to be employed, there's only 10 now. And some will leave that doesn't leave very many people going up through the pipeline to be highly skilled at it to make judgment calls. That's an issue. But I just think it's I think, Sam, like we've always seen with technology where everyone said it's going to take away jobs, it's going to lead to realignment ⁓ skills.
Sam Penny (57:02)
So.
Hugh Massie (57:17)
People will become entrepreneurs in different ways. And I think that entrepreneurship will go up. ⁓ And you know, a job is not a right. And I think that ⁓ it's not entitlement. People are going to have to earn a job, they're going to have to spend some time skilling themselves up and not just be parting away and think I can rock up and get a job.
think that world's changed too. ⁓ It's going to move back in the employer favour in that sense.
Sam Penny (57:51)
moment, ⁓ do you see organizations trying to use AI to replace human connection, to replace human relationships?
Hugh Massie (58:02)
They are ⁓ doing that. And you can just see that with all the customer service ⁓ departments, you know, you ring up the doctor office or you ring up, you know, Telstra and you got a mile of numbers to push and different people turning up. I think that's what's happening. But there will be a pushback because ⁓ people do when it comes to a major problem. People want a human being.
And so I think there will be realignments ⁓ there. AI is still an experiment. But the AI bots or agents are going to get better and better as well. So we should expect there to be AI agents and avatars providing services. ⁓
And we should expect to see them when this is where the opportunity becomes driving new products.
Sam Penny (59:03)
All right, here, let's talk about DNA behavior. What's your big vision for it and what would success really look like for you personally?
Hugh Massie (59:13)
Well, you know, for me, I suppose if you set the moonshot goal right now is can we have a billion people in our database that we are positively impacting lives. And I think the success looks, you know, looks like that major databases of people so major, you know, companies that are serving a lot of people are able to provide a much more tailored experience for every one of those people.
you know, whether it's a bank, doing that as part of a voice of the customer program, you know, really understanding what a person needs. And we move out of the one size fits all world. I think that's what it is. So for me, it's a billion people getting to behavioral personalization across the board being mainstream, not just, well, that's just a pipe dream. And that's you getting up and
you know, seeing way beyond the future, I think it's right there now to be to be done. And, you know, we as I said, before Sam, we can do a behavioral heat map of millions of people overnight and show leaders into what their organization really looks like from a behavioral standpoint, if they think people matter. And I don't know, there's too many leaders who would say that people don't matter.
Sam Penny (1:00:37)
So then on that, if you could impact 1 billion people with your work, what would change in the world with money and business?
Hugh Massie (1:00:45)
I think that a lot more, at one level, businesses are going to provide a lot more value and will ultimately be able to charge a higher price because they have connected to the clients and customers at an emotional level. And at the end of the day, every business is customer, you know, is customer led or its success or failure rests on the customers or the clients. So the more value you can provide on a sustainable basis.
the better and that and that does come from knowing people better. It's, you know, and it's not just doing better for the employees where some say, okay, if we have great employees tied into the business, we'll succeed. That is one part you've got to have the customers feeling it to feeling the love if you want to call it. So so so I think that's that that to me is a big a big part of this.
Sam Penny (1:01:40)
So Hugh before we wrap up, I really want to make this practical for our listeners. If someone listening wants to align their behavior and their money starting today, what do you think would be three practical steps they could take?
Hugh Massie (1:01:53)
first thing would be is ⁓ do a DNA profile, do the full thing and understand every trait and then strength and struggle about yourself. And so what are your strengths? Where can you optimize yourself? You know, if you are, you know, very good at, you know, communication, and you love that, that's going to come out, then go down that path.
And then, you know, then then from a financial sense, you know, your your financial decision making follows who you are. But look at as a practical step, look at your three to five best decisions that you've ever made. And what was going on with those decisions and what were the circumstances? And what were the three to five worst decisions?
And there's normally a pattern in both of them. Like, so your best decision, like I said before, for me, the two or three cornerstone decisions were me taking an enormous risk, believe it or not. That may not be right for everyone. ⁓ But the worst decisions then was, you know, if you look at it not was trusting someone.
and not looking in. So I took risks on people and not looking in deeper on the details of that would be the would be would be the other side. ⁓ So and for others, it's just straight out not reading the fine print, right? could be where their worst decisions came up. ⁓ You know, so due diligence, if you want to call it that. But there's a pattern there. For all of us, it can be an investing money.
You know, I made my best decisions when I did ABCD and the worst ones were when I actually sold winners way too early and hung on to the losers for too long. Right. That's a, that's a very common pattern of sort of risk averse people. Well, that might be, you know, you've got a strength there in risk aversion, but you need to manage that other side. And I, and so that's bringing it to practical terms. think.
making yourself coachable and having a coach. So Sam, I think that's part of what you do. But now I've had a coach walk, walk, walk with me on the journey for 20 years. And she is not involved inside the business really doesn't know how it all works. She knows quite a lot, but not the the real team tax. But we keep to managing my energy so that I I keep ⁓
having that positive mindset and any doubts that get in my head, she strips them out. Right. And I think that's important that you've to have someone walking the journey. And I think it can be a sounding board of people I've got while I've had Judy as the coach, I've got somebody there that's helping me with health, sports, you know, a couple of friends in different areas financially, you know, it's a team. And I think we all need that team.
Sam Penny (1:04:59)
Excellent. Is this DNA profile that you speak about, is this something that's freely available?
Hugh Massie (1:05:07)
it's not complete open source on the website. But you know, if anyone listening wants to reach out to me to do a trial and sort of see for themselves. ⁓ I'm more than happy to give you the link, including you, Sam, of course, see what it's like. And you're to get you know, you're going to get some initial insights and a ⁓ a video to start with. But we will send you obviously more information and then you can work out what to do with that. It's going to it's pretty user friendly. And you're going to you're going to start to see the pattern straight out the gate.
Sam Penny (1:05:21)
Fantastic.
What a great conversation that was with Hugh Massie. And if there's one thing I hope you take away from today, it's this behavior drives money. When you understand how you wired and how your team is wired, you lower risk, you build trust, and you open the door to exponential growth. Hugh, thanks so much for joining me today.
For those who want to follow your work, learn more about DNA behaviour or connect with you directly, where's the best place for them to go?
Hugh Massie (1:06:06)
So the best place thank you, Sam, firstly, for having me ⁓ on the show and for this rich conversation and, pushing my boundaries, which is great. ⁓ So to find out more, go to DNAbehaviour.com and for you Aussies, there's no U in the the in the behavior. It's American style. ⁓ Go there and there's plenty of content that you can that you can read books, blogs. And if anybody wants to trial profile, send me an email at DNAcare.
at dnabehaviour.com and I'll get it arranged.
Sam Penny (1:06:38)
Fantastic, Hugh. And I'll make sure I put all of those links into the show notes. And for you listening, if this conversation has sparked something, please do me a favour, hit subscribe and share this episode with a friend or a colleague. It means a lot to me and it helps more people discover these conversations and put them into action. I'm Sam Penny, and this has been Built to Sell, Built to Buy. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.
